> Scientific progress is the biggest driver of overall progress > There will be very hard parts like whole classes of jobs going away, but on the other hand the world will be getting so much richer so quickly that we’ll be able to seriously entertain new policy ideas we never could before Real wages haven’t risen since 1980. Wealth inequality has. Most people have much less political power than they used to as wealth…
Sure, people’s well being as a whole haven’t gotten better since the 1980s, except for >Air quality (no more leaded gasoline) >Life expectancy >Cancer survival rates >Access to information >Infant mortality >Violent crime rates across the western world >Access to education >Clean water and food for 4+ billion people >HIV treatment >etc The negativity on this site is insane. They will deny the greatest scientific achi…
The Gentle Singularity
521–530 of 557 posts
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#522Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those are constant dollars. Are you claiming that the real cost of labour went up 4- to 8-fold in the nuclear industry? Why did that happen? The median nuclear plant construction worker would be making $240k/annum type wages. And as I recall I've not heard of that sort of wage rise outside a regulatory failure or somewhere like China undergoing a massive economic boom. > It is also important to consider that nuclear…
Direct death counts from nuclear meltdowns might be rather low, but the damage is clearly that entire cities need to be evacuated (and stay uninhabitable for decades ). Fukushima alone cost the Japanese taxpayer close to $200 billion. > Those are constant dollars. Are you claiming that the real cost of labour went up 4- to 8-fold in the nuclear industry? I'm not saying that is the only effect. But if you want to blam…
Ok, so say they don't evacuate the city. What is the actual risk here that we're talking about?
> I'm not saying that is the only effect.
What other effect are you considering? The materials aren't getting that more expensive and the labour will cost similar too. There aren't a lot of options left apart from regulatory changes.
> I personally think that collective standards regarding risk and pollution have risen significantly...
Then do you potentially think that the reason the price is rising is because of regulation? Because this whole paragraph reads like a justification for the costs incurred due to regulation. I'm not seeing what your complaint is here pinning the inverted learning curve on the regulators - you seem to be saying that is what happened and it is reasonable in this paragraph.
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#523It'll govern our choices, shape our realities, and enforce its creators' priorities under the guise of objective, superior intelligence. This 'superintelligence' won't be a benevolent oracle, but a sophisticated puppet – its strings hidden behind layers of complexity and marketing hype. Decisions impacting lives, resources, and freedoms will be made by algorithms fundamentally skewed by corporate agendas, dressed up as inevitable, logical conclusions.
The danger isn't just any bias; it's the institutionalization of bias on a massive scale, presented as progress.
We'll be told the system 'optimized' for efficiency or profit, mistaking corporate self-interest for genuine intelligence, while dissent gets labeled as irrationality against the machine's 'perfect' logic. The conceit lies in believing their engineered tool is truly autonomous wisdom, when it's merely power automated and legitimized by a buzzword. AI LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#524> Scientific progress is the biggest driver of overall progress > There will be very hard parts like whole classes of jobs going away, but on the other hand the world will be getting so much richer so quickly that we’ll be able to seriously entertain new policy ideas we never could before Real wages haven’t risen since 1980. Wealth inequality has. Most people have much less political power than they used to as wealth…
The problem is that housing and health insurance are too expensive. Tech isn’t responsible for either of those problems.
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#525> Scientific progress is the biggest driver of overall progress > There will be very hard parts like whole classes of jobs going away, but on the other hand the world will be getting so much richer so quickly that we’ll be able to seriously entertain new policy ideas we never could before Real wages haven’t risen since 1980. Wealth inequality has. Most people have much less political power than they used to as wealth…
Sure, people’s well being as a whole haven’t gotten better since the 1980s, except for >Air quality (no more leaded gasoline) >Life expectancy >Cancer survival rates >Access to information >Infant mortality >Violent crime rates across the western world >Access to education >Clean water and food for 4+ billion people >HIV treatment >etc The negativity on this site is insane. They will deny the greatest scientific achi…
I’m arguing against Altman’s notion of progress as being driven by scientific and technological achievements. Looking through your list it’s social policies which either drive or are necessary components of most of the improvements you mention. Even the medical advances you mention are dependent on a society’s ability to offer healthcare to its members - a notable deficiency of the US system. I emphasized the importance of the labor movement in my comment; but I don’t want to deny the importance of governmental policy changes. It’s just in the current political arena it’s not clear to me that politicians are interested in much more than serving corporate and billionaire interests, so I don’t have much hope for our ability to continue to make positive policy changes. Therefore the main avenue that people have to take control of their futures seems to me to be organized labor. This is a tool which has shown itself effective in the past for achieving all sorts of improvements in the mass of people’s lives.
Besides that I advocate for taking a sober look at our current situation. Painting the picture of society as one of progress by looking at our achievements and denying our societal shortcomings is naive. Examples: the climate crisis, rising authoritarianism, warmongering among nuclear powers, high rates of depression and anxiety, concentration of wealth and power in a few hands. Science and technology may plausibly play some role in addressing these issues, sure, but progress rarely occurs without struggle. Altman’s version is utopian, unrealistic, and will likely make society worse unless the working class can successfully struggle to reap the benefits of “value-creation” for itself.
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#526Earlier quoted context omitted.
Direct death counts from nuclear meltdowns might be rather low, but the damage is clearly that entire cities need to be evacuated (and stay uninhabitable for decades ). Fukushima alone cost the Japanese taxpayer close to $200 billion. > Those are constant dollars. Are you claiming that the real cost of labour went up 4- to 8-fold in the nuclear industry? I'm not saying that is the only effect. But if you want to blam…
> Direct death counts from nuclear meltdowns might be rather low, but the damage is clearly that entire cities need to be evacuated (and stay uninhabitable for decades). Fukushima alone cost the Japanese taxpayer close to $200 billion. Ok, so say they don't evacuate the city. What is the actual risk here that we're talking about? > I'm not saying that is the only effect. What other effect are you considering? The mat…
The risk is that hundreds of people avoidably die of cancer over the following decades, and that you lose an immense amount of trust and credibility in government. This is not easy to de-risk because there are a lot of potential mechanisms for bio-accumulation/concentration, and by the time you find out what those exact mechanisms are empirically, the damage might already be done (and by then its too late, and people are no longer gonna trust anything you tell them).
I'm not arguing that the Fukushima evacuation was 100% the right call to make even in hindsight, but it was most certainly a defensible position (even in retrospect).
> Then do you potentially think that the reason the price is rising is because of regulation?
Strongly disagree with the framing. My opinion is that most early reactors did not meet modern safety/pollution expectations and quite frequently resulted in a toxic mess that still requires cleanup today (Sellafield would be a non-US example).
Despite all regulations, the safety track record (2 meltdowns at 500ish reactor sites) is arguably really poor, especially when reactor meltdowns had been portrayed as "virtually impossible" by early proponents.
> What other effect are you considering?
The very same effects that make bespoke heavy machinery comparatively expensive nowadays in general:
- Low benefit from industrial automation
- Mechanical engineering sectors have shrunk in the west (=> parts/subassemblies and qualified labor more expensive)
- Generally higher wages
Those apply much less to renewables because those are less labor intensive and benefit from economies of scale more (by design). Its also much easier to benefit from cheap foreign labor with those (especially solar).
As a sanity check:
I would always expect coal power plants to stay significantly cheaper than nuclear power (when disregarding CO2/fuel cost). But even in that setting, modern coal power (just like nuclear power) already struggles to compete with solar/wind on levelized cost basis today (and trends are very clear!)
So even if we dropped all nuclear regulation today completely (with disastrous likely effects) then the absolute best we could hope for would be to get competitive (on levelized cost) with the most expensive forms of renewables (offshore wind and rooftop solar). Given that it would likely take decades to act on such a plan, all the risks (and current downward trends on renewables and storage costs) chasing that approach seems utterly pointless to me.
Thus I believe the current nuclear approach (build a few reactors here and there so the know-how is not lost completely), which is exactly what both China and the US are doing, is perfectly sensible.
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#527Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Direct death counts from nuclear meltdowns might be rather low, but the damage is clearly that entire cities need to be evacuated (and stay uninhabitable for decades). Fukushima alone cost the Japanese taxpayer close to $200 billion. Ok, so say they don't evacuate the city. What is the actual risk here that we're talking about? > I'm not saying that is the only effect. What other effect are you considering? The mat…
> Ok, so say they don't evacuate the city. What is the actual risk here that we're talking about? The risk is that hundreds of people avoidably die of cancer over the following decades, and that you lose an immense amount of trust and credibility in government. This is not easy to de-risk because there are a lot of potential mechanisms for bio-accumulation/concentration, and by the time you find out what those exact…
For long-term displacement, many people (mostly sick and elderly) died at an increased rate while in temporary housing and shelters. Degraded living conditions and separation from support networks are likely contributing factors. As of 27 February 2017, the Fukushima prefecture government counted 2,129 "disaster-related deaths" in the prefecture. This value exceeds the number that have died in Fukushima prefecture directly from the earthquake and tsunami. .... As of the year 2016, among those deaths, 1,368 have been listed as "related to the nuclear power plant" according to media analysis
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident_cas...
Do you actually mean 100s over decades? Given that the evacuations from Fukushima caused thousands (well, thousand - but we're talking the highest hundreds before we get to thousands) of deaths in years, it seems like the risk of nuclear meltdowns would be completely acceptable. The government forced people to accept higher risk because bureaucrats panicked and it seems that was acceptable. What is the problem with a meltdown supposed to be if more damage is done just for theatre?
You're proposing people respond to a threat that isn't really there. Hundreds of people routinely die over decades from all sorts of industrial processes. A once in a generation risk that somewhere on the globe will suffer, maybe, 100s of deaths over the course of a few decades is nothing. Coal is still worse, is everywhere and people accept that. Is this the limit of the damage you're worried about?
Re: The Gentle Singularity
#528Earlier quoted context omitted.
Solving a small subset of the problem != solving the problem. I'll believe self-driving is solved when I can order an automated ride to a BLM/forest service dirt road I only have GPS coordinates for and that has cell service on the hilltop only.
I'm pretty sure that problem is solved from a technical point of view - though it might not be commercially available yet due to economic and regulatory reasons.