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How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

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Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#41

Post by throwanem »

glenngillen wrote: post #40
ktbwrestler wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

genuinely curious what your take is here, I have been in security engineering for 5-6 years, then most recently a startup that's using rails. It honestly does not seem that bad even though we're using an ember frontend. What is your thought process here? Is it the notion that you can ship as fast as possible, and that creates a shitty environment given that you're a hamster on a wheel getting measured by output since…

As evidenced by the other replies by OP, it’s a hyperbolic and bad take. There’s plenty of companies doing just fine with Rails codebases. Many of which are a decade or more old now and have done just fine with the inter generational transfer that happens due to natural employee attrition and haven’t been held hostage by one or two all-knowing engineers.

I said "empire builders," not "engineers." Nor did I say "held hostage."

My perspective on this is that of a working engineer who made a deliberate choice, now nearly 15 years ago, to avoid ending up stuck in the same decreasing-radius career spiral I saw Rails leading me toward - so I went and did some other things, then spent a decade building modern TypeScript instead, mostly on Kubernetes, without losing the ability to knock out a quick one-off script or architect a system top to bottom as I need. It's worked out splendidly for me! I suppose I might have done as well if I decided differently, but I admit I don't see how.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#42

Post by farts_mckensy »

sour-taste wrote: post #38

This isn't at all a rebuttal of the post, more a different perspective. I started a new job while basically deeply depressed. It colored all my opinions of the company and my coworkers. As I'm coming out of that through a combination of medication and intensive CBT I'm realizing that a lot of the negativity I felt towards my job was the result of the depression. As things improve I'm realizing that the job is mostly…

On the other hand, some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world. So what if you were right about your job initially, and the CBT is basically just gaslighting you into spinning things in a positive way?

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#43

Post by petesergeant »

crowcroft wrote: post #19

You can usually find out if a job is wrong for you within days, sometimes hours. You might never know for sure if a job is right for you though.

and sometimes before starting ... at two weeks' out, they'd had to change the salary offer (down) because they had screwed up the salary calculation, expressed surprise I'd said I planned to use the unlimited vacation policy to take a fixed four weeks a year (they felt it was a lot), changed the offer from employee to contractor, referred me to their accountant for what was really the simplest of accounting queries, sent me an equity calculator with an assumption of a $10bn sale price, and some other weird stuff. Really should have known better, and only lasted a few months -- my old company reached out to check I was happy in the new role, and had me back within a fortnight of checking in.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#44

Post by brian-armstrong »

BobbyTables2 wrote: post #37
throwanem wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rails is uniquely compromised by its history and by its language of implementation. Ruby is good for many things. Writing maintainable software in the absence of conventions enforced by shotgun is none of them. And Ruby's American fanbase gets off way too much on holding the shotgun.

Worse than Python (without Typing)?

100% yes. Python mostly encourages simple, stupid code. Code that you can still read while 2 beers in. Rails, on the other hand, encourages being as clever as possible at all times. Forget about local side effects when any part of the codebase can just reach in and patch another part of the codebase.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#45

Post by incompleteCode »

farts_mckensy wrote: post #42
sour-taste wrote: post #38

This isn't at all a rebuttal of the post, more a different perspective. I started a new job while basically deeply depressed. It colored all my opinions of the company and my coworkers. As I'm coming out of that through a combination of medication and intensive CBT I'm realizing that a lot of the negativity I felt towards my job was the result of the depression. As things improve I'm realizing that the job is mostly…

On the other hand, some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world. So what if you were right about your job initially, and the CBT is basically just gaslighting you into spinning things in a positive way?

Mildly is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. What does mildly depressed mean?

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#46

Post by throwanem »

randmeerkat wrote: post #39
throwanem wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you mean about Rails specifically, it's that the total lack of discipline in both language and framework makes it impossible to build a product maintainable by more than one person, so every "successful" project has one or a few covert empire builders running it, usually with more political than technical success. That's not a kind of project that pays enough to be worth the trouble, even before we talk about oppo…

This must be a god level troll post.

I was asked for an opinion and I gave one. Don't make too much of it. Rails devotees can't stand hearing a bad word about their baby, they always make a fuss.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#47

Post by bravesoul2 »

amackera wrote: post #16
throwanem wrote: post #7

> That job turned out to be shoddy, ancient, flaky tech all the way down, with comfortable, long-tenured staff who didn’t know (and did NOT want to hear) how out of date their tech had become. Every time. I don't care about your stack; obviously I have taste and preferences but I'm a professional, I'll work with whatever, as long as it isn't Rails. (Because there is no good work in that world.) But it will not take m…

Can you expand on why you avoid Rails? I'm legitimately curious! Edit: I see your other replies, nvm!

I found a correlation between Rails and lower salaries. Not sure why though. I was actively looking to move to Rails for a change of scenery, until I realised it comes with a tax.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#48

Post by throwanem »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #44
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse than Python (without Typing)?

100% yes. Python mostly encourages simple, stupid code. Code that you can still read while 2 beers in. Rails, on the other hand, encourages being as clever as possible at all times. Forget about local side effects when any part of the codebase can just reach in and patch another part of the codebase.

Exactly so.

I'm not actually averse to a programming environment where the only ground truth is the running image. I love that kind of environment! In my editor, where worst case I dump some state when I restart, and I can just not play such dangerous games when on call or there otherwise exists a risk of winning such stupid prizes. Production has rules. Or it had better.

That said, if you want me to go back to dynamic typing, there's a fee. The grass really is a lot greener over here.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#49

Post by farts_mckensy »

incompleteCode wrote: post #45
farts_mckensy wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world. So what if you were right about your job initially, and the CBT is basically just gaslighting you into spinning things in a positive way?

Mildly is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. What does mildly depressed mean?

The idea that there are varying degrees of depression is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Re: How long it takes to know if a job is right for you or not

#50

Post by Vespasian »

farts_mckensy wrote: post #42
sour-taste wrote: post #38

This isn't at all a rebuttal of the post, more a different perspective. I started a new job while basically deeply depressed. It colored all my opinions of the company and my coworkers. As I'm coming out of that through a combination of medication and intensive CBT I'm realizing that a lot of the negativity I felt towards my job was the result of the depression. As things improve I'm realizing that the job is mostly…

On the other hand, some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world. So what if you were right about your job initially, and the CBT is basically just gaslighting you into spinning things in a positive way?

Assuming that is true, does a more negative way of viewing things actually benefit you (even if it would be slightly more "accurate")?

If one has a choice (that means if there is no case of clinical depression):

At least anecdotally a bit of optimism improves my life quality a lot and results in a higher productivity, proactive solution finding and a more pleasant work environment. Constantly looking at the negative side of things (with a healthy serving of snark) contributes, in my opinion, to burnout and fatigue.

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