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Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

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Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#81

Post by theoreticalmal »

logifail wrote: post #63
eschneider wrote: post #28

If you're going to try and track this stuff for real, keep in mind most devices like this use motion sensors to go into low-power mode when stationary and only transmit on the move.

> most devices like this use motion sensors to go into low-power mode when stationary and only transmit on the move I've been working with (non-covert!) tracker devices for a project, and use exactly this approach, when stationary the tracker goes into low-power mode and sends position once every 12 hours to preserve battery life. When motion is detected, we send regular updates.

If low cost is the goal, consider a voltage measurement device. ICE engines have electrical systems that run ear 13V when the engine is on, and ~12.5-12.8V when the engine is off

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#82

Post by theoreticalmal »

Hey this is my industry! Teltonika is a major player in the IoT tracking space. They have features designed specifically to handle this situation. I’m told that GPS jamming and radio pinpointing techniques are used to steal vehicles with these kinds of telematics devices installed, especially in Africa

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#83

Post by closewith »

manarth wrote: post #77
closewith wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private ANPR in public spaces is unlawful in the entire EU. The US needs to get a GDPR equivalent to protect basic human rights from corporate surveillance.

For a given definition of "public". Driving into a supermarket carpark? Most will have time-limits controlled by private ANPR cameras.

True, but they can't track vehicles on public roads, and they cannot store or persist the number plates for any other reason then access control.

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#84

Post by andruby »

theoreticalmal wrote: post #81
logifail wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most devices like this use motion sensors to go into low-power mode when stationary and only transmit on the move I've been working with (non-covert!) tracker devices for a project, and use exactly this approach, when stationary the tracker goes into low-power mode and sends position once every 12 hours to preserve battery life. When motion is detected, we send regular updates.

If low cost is the goal, consider a voltage measurement device. ICE engines have electrical systems that run ear 13V when the engine is on, and ~12.5-12.8V when the engine is off

That would require plugging into the wiring. At that point you no longer need a battery and can just use the car's power.

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#85

Post by myself248 »

zikduruqe wrote: post #76
aa-jv wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the most effective technique for detection would be attained by spoofing the GPS signals, like the IRGC did to capture multiple US' drones? https://www.gpsworld.com/gps-circle-spoofing-discovered-in-i... I wonder how easily GPS can be spoofed, locally ... https://rntfnd.org/2021/10/28/cheap-and-easy-gps-gnss-spoofi... Seems someone already had the idea: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardwarehacking/comments/10na5…

I used to have a GPS repeater installed in our lab for RF testing. The FAA did not like it at all and threatened us with action. Don't go spoofing or broadcasting your own GPS signals unless you have a decent legal team behind you.

Put it in an RF chamber and keep another GPS receiver outside the chamber some distance away to make sure it doesn't lose lock on the real satellites. That's your leakage canary.

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#86

Post by myself248 »

ehnto wrote: post #54
userbinator wrote: post #51

I wonder how effective an EMP would be at "sterilising" a vehicle of such trackers. Especially if the vehicle in question has no electronics and uses a mechanically-injected diesel engine.

Certainly an interesting thought if you have a very old diesel. I would wonder if all the metal would hamper an EMP pulse that you could safely generate at home. Diesel's going back 20+ years still have ECUs as well, not to mention the rest of the vehicle's electronics could be at risk. So it would have to be a properly old or unique vehicle.

It's an interesting idea. The "obvious" route would be to tear down the vehicle and remove all the ECUs you want to save, then administer the zap. But at that point you probably find the tracker hardware anyway, unless it's really buried in some upholstery or something.

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#87

Post by aggregator-ios »

JFYI: These devices are also installed on cars before it arrives at the dealer or by the dealer itself, but not necessarily by the manufacturer. Rumors are that it is installed by larger dealer groups and is obscured or just failed to be disclosed to the end dealer. Either as part of their LoJak(?) sales upsell or tracking for insurance purposes.

It's usually plugged into your OBD port. If your car has API features, some EV owners have graphed their electricity usage and shown drain/spikes at intervals and led them to find these devices. The consumption from the 12v battery causes the larger EV battery to charge the 12v battery, showing these charging/discharge spikes. There's also sometimes a sticker next to your tire pressure label on the driver's side door mentioning the installation of such a device.

I guess get rid of it if you care to.

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#88

Post by euroderf »

b8 wrote: post #46
goda90 wrote: post #2

Better hope your stalker isn't friends with a law enforcement officer either: https://deflock.me/

Simply putting a fake plate would bypass that. Truckers usually have a pulley system on their plates to avoid tolls, so maybe more normal drivers will implement such a system or find a way to create something that messes up their camera OCR.

> Truckers usually have a pulley system on their plates to avoid tolls

You mean like James Bond's rotating license plates ? Got a pointer to this stuff ?

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#89

Post by JohnMakin »

weinzierl wrote: post #16
JohnMakin wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a generic data privacy counter-measure or concern. This is specifically targeted against stalking, which is pretty much one of only a few cases where this kind of thing would be used against you. Specifically the case where the perpetrator will place a device in or on the victim's car.

Sure, but the stalking issue is a subset of the generic data privacy issue or do you believe you can hide from a stalker if everyone else under the sun knows you location. It might be too difficult to use location data brokers for stalking[1] but the whole economy around them makes the app ecosystem weak against location privacy and makes it easy to use a manipulated app for stalking. No special devices needed and ce…

I’m not sure what point you’re really trying to make here. This is a thread about detection methods of an extremely invasive (and rare) method of stalking, which yes is a subset of a data privacy issue. The fact that data brokers can get a lot of location and other data about you is irrelevant to the discussion.

> or do you believe you can hide from a stalker if everyone else under the sun knows you location.

I’m not sure anyone is claiming that the detection methods described in this study are going to make you completely undetectable to any party at all times. Again, not sure what point you’re trying to make here and it feels irrelevant to the larger thread. The original comment seemed to indicate that the article hadn’t been read at all.

Re: Detection of hidden cellular GPS vehicle trackers

#90

Post by Jolter »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #42
timewizard wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing where you are is useful. Knowing where you _aren't_ is equally useful. I can imagine half a dozen ways to use this data against you in all kinds of settings. Sales, divorce, employment, espionage against your employer, burglary, and basic blackmail.

It doesn't necessarily say where you aren't. What if you get in somebody else's car? (Not uncommon for me as we typically carpool to trailheads.)

Sure, but if your car is presently driving to the supermarket, it’s a pretty safe bet that you are probably not at your house.
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