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Why Koreans ask what year you were born

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Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#121

Post by blissofbeing »

Leftium wrote: post #119

It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style should be used. The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how formal speech indicates social distance more than simple politeness: > [존댓말] indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who normally use an intimate casu…

It's interesting that someone like a boss would be further away from you and not a friend, how would you talk to your boss that is also your friend?

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#122

Post by benhurmarcel »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #32
bambax wrote: post #6

> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis…

Has tutoiement changed too? How does that work with machines, do they always use vous form?

Typically machines/websites should use "vous", but it is more and more common to read "tu", depending on the target audience and the company marketing.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#123

Post by staticman2 »

anal_reactor wrote: post #86
sfifs wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I find addressing people by surname uniquely stupid. Like are you calling the person or the historical clan? It perhaps made sense for medieval lords to address their underlings as if they were interchangeable, in our modern context that has largely done away with royalty, using surnames makes no sense. It becomes even more interesting when traditionally cultures (like mine) don't use surnames, but modern IT sys…

The fact that different cultures evolved such systems independently proves that the general idea does make sense. Case in point: you go to an American company, the CEO says "call me simply John, feel free to chat up whenever you feel like it, we're all family here" and then you go talk to him about sex life problems of your marriage and he just stares at you awkwardly. Having explicit layers of social "closeness" mak…

In your example the American CEO said you are family.

Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children and in laws about your sex life?

Of course not. Whatever problem the American in this hypothetical is having, name conventions are not likely to help.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#124

Post by blargthorwars »

anthk wrote: post #25
bambax wrote: post #6

> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis…

Spaniard here; addressing someone by the last name looks really outdated.

As a tourist, it's a cheat code to be hyper formal. Gets you instant goodwill.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#125

Post by Leftium »

blissofbeing wrote: post #121
Leftium wrote: post #119

It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style should be used. The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how formal speech indicates social distance more than simple politeness: > [존댓말] indicates a psychological distance between the speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who normally use an intimate casu…

It's interesting that someone like a boss would be further away from you and not a friend, how would you talk to your boss that is also your friend?

I suppose it would depend on the exact people and circumstances: the "social distance" can be very subjective.

- The same situation with different people or the same people in a different situation may result in different speech levels.

- If an older person feels really close to a junior, they may even ask them to "lower their speech."

There was a documentary about a much older Korean working for a very young boss. This resulted in a conflict: age hierarchy vs role hierarchy. They both spoke to each other in the formal style.

And think about addressing a mix of people who are both above and below you in the hierarchy...

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#126

Post by ncruces »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #51
ncruces wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I personally find title + surname the worst; it's obnoxious and elitist; my (first) name isn't "engineer". I can live with it, though. I just kinda hate people who demand it of others. So, clearly, you can't please everybody.

By title I mean "Mister", etc. Perhaps "Engineer" is a German thing ;)

And then you must know (if this is a system: store) the person's preferred gender, and in some cultures marital status.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#127

Post by mock-possum »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #105
cess11 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think hierarchy is natural and good you're a conservative or some other kind of reactionary. Hierarchies invite revolt and need a lot of force to keep in place.

I did not talk about natural, I did not talk about good. If you think there are no hierarchies everywhere , then we have a completely different worldview.

It’s sounds like we’re running into the is/ought problem - just because there is hierarchy doesn’t mean that’s the way it ought to be.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#128

Post by bitbasher »

Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider.

When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals (25-50).

I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or so-- and a new player joined the clan.

One day the new player flipped out on me in our clan chat. Our clan leaders told her I wasn't Japanese and to cut me some slack. She refused to believe I was a foreigner.

On the one hand I was proud. My Japanese was good enough for someone to think I wasn't a foreigner. On the other hand I was sad, I clearly did something wrong.

The clan leader spoke to me in a 1:1 fashion and tried to explain. It wasn't the language I used, but more or less how I interacted with the more senior clan members. I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary...

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#129

Post by vel0city »

staticman2 wrote: post #123
anal_reactor wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that different cultures evolved such systems independently proves that the general idea does make sense. Case in point: you go to an American company, the CEO says "call me simply John, feel free to chat up whenever you feel like it, we're all family here" and then you go talk to him about sex life problems of your marriage and he just stares at you awkwardly. Having explicit layers of social "closeness" mak…

In your example the American CEO said you are family. Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children and in laws about your sex life? Of course not. Whatever problem the American in this hypothetical is having, name conventions are not likely to help.

This wasn't just "sex life", it was "sex life problems of your marriage". And yes, there's a good chance I'd go to family and close friends if I was having intimacy problems with my spouse (with the approval of my spouse, of course!), assuming I have a close personal relationship with those people.

It's weird to me so many people in America feel they can't talk to anyone but strangers on their internet or paid specialists about their sexual issues. Sex is generally a pretty normal part of life, especially between two married people, and yet everyone feels they can't talk about it at all. It's an unhealthy mindset IMO.

Re: Why Koreans ask what year you were born

#130

Post by Llamamoe »

bitbasher wrote: post #128

Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider. When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals (25-50). I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or so-- and a new player joined the clan. One…

> I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary...

I know that this sort of shit happens in corporations and the government, but the idea that it crosses over into even multiplayer games makes me reconsider if I really want to ever visit Japan...

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