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Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

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481–490 of 957 posts

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People greatly overestimate the amount of material cheating that happens, especially among large companies and the wealthy. I used to work for a Federal audit organization and almost all of the recoveries had a root cause in sloppy compliance and record-keeping practices rather than intentional malfeasance. It is broadly recognized as optimal that the recovered money should be several-fold the direct costs spent to r…

>AFAIK, the increased spending at the IRS did not lead to concomitant offsetting recoveries. This is a predictable outcome, the amount of enforcement activity has been pretty finely tuned for decades to optimize ROI. Most of the recoveries come from changing focuses on compliance to areas that haven’t seen much enforcement activity in many years. Fighting entropy basically. AFAIK, all the data shows exactly the oppos…

These are studies designed to show positive results, and are susceptible to the criticism the parent identified.

IRS enforcement has diminishing returns because the IRS starts with the small minority of people who are very obviously cheating on their taxes. Those people get audited and the IRS very easily recovers money from them. If you want to audit more people than that, you have to audit people who are less likely to be cheating. The more people you want to audit, the lower the collections rate gets.

But if you're averaging in the recovery rate from the people who are so obviously cheating, you can get quite far down the road past a marginal benefit before the average becomes a negative number.

Meanwhile, even that isn't considering the indirect costs. The IRS spends $1 and recovers $2, but audits are much cheaper than the IRS than they are for taxpayers. So the IRS spends $1 and the taxpayers (many of whom did nothing wrong, because we're talking about averages here) have to pay $5, in order for the IRS to recover $2. That's quite bad -- $6 is being spent in order to recover $2, but it's being reported as a $1 net gain.

And it's worse than that, because those $6 aren't just money, it's actual spending -- human labor hours that couldn't be allocated to something else -- so what you're losing isn't the cost of that labor, it's the value of that labor. Someone was being paid $1 to create $2 in value but now instead of doing that they have to spend that time on an audit, so the $6 in cost is actually $12 in lost value.

Not accounting for things like this makes it seem like we should be spending a lot more resources on something with diminishing returns and large hidden costs.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#482
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my simple mind, if software has been "released" it is no longer R&D, and "bug fixes" (which should include continuous improvements such as your example) are not research. I may be way, way wrong though.

That seems too exploitable to pass muster in the court. If you release Beta 0.0.1 of your software after 2 months of development then spend the next 5 years getting it up to version 1.0 that's clearly a development effort not a maintenance effort.

That's the reason we have courts, to cut through those gray areas.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#483
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sufficiently idiotic tax scheme such as Section 174 can destroy far more income tax revenue than it collects, by destroying jobs and small businesses, and knocking high earners down a tax bracket or three. Section 174 isn’t doing much to tax FANG companies. Apple has all their profits in their Double Irish Dutch Sandwich racket. Amazon cooks the books to appear unprofitable on paper, in a manner that would make Hol…

> I think Zuck, the PayPal Mafia, and the blood-boy cabal bribed some Congresscritters to kill off what remained of their competition. What's with the craze for finding conspirational incentives? There's a repeatable pattern where commenters hallucinate an unreasonable incentive for everything. Motivations are difficult to discern (see courtrooms), and it is a modern vice to try and analyse incentives, but too often…

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Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#484
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. I was focused on the idea that for software to be taxed as a capital investment there had to be a time when it was considered a finished product. Like building a tractor. I guess the analogy then is how the tractor builder is taxed when fulfilling warranties. I suppose tractor business can expense as R&D work that goes into processes that make it easier to fulfill warranties.

Each version of the software is a finished product just as any particular tractor is a finished product. The difference is that I know plenty of physical assets that companies buy which see no changes other than maintenance over their entire lifetime. I don't know of a single piece of software produced which receives only bug fixes. Yeah devs spend their time fixing bugs, but a large percentage of those bugs are the…

>I don't know of a single piece of software produced which receives only bug fixes.

TeX

https://web.archive.org/web/20190428184722/https://texfaq.or...

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#485
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are businesses that will build a big custom piece of machinery. Think a factory or a mine. That may last for 20 years, but require workers to operate, maintain, etc. This is handled in existing tax law; building or improving a capital asset is amortized, repairing or maintaining it is expensed. It can be a pain in the butt, this is why accounting is not a trivial profession. We could (and I think should ) treat…

> Think a factory or a mine. That may last for 20 years, but require workers to operate, maintain, etc. Before Sec 174, s/w development costs were subject to a choice: amortization as if they were a capital expense, or regular deduction as a normal operating expense. Companies could decide which category to put costs into depending on the nature of the work (and presumably to suit their own interests). Sec 174 remove…

Oh, I didn't realize - I knew 174 made it "must amortize", I didn't realize it could be done either way previously. Very silly indeed how they've done this.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you pay a software engineer, that's not "really" an "expense", regardless of the fact that you paid them. If I pay for ... pretty much anything whatsoever ... I cannot write it off my personal income tax here in Canada. Not housing, not food. Medical expenses will come off the bottom not off the top.

Corporate income taxes are treated differently than personal income taxes. You absolutely can deduct corporate expenses in Canada.

I didn't mention Canada in order to nonsensically compare corporate taxes in the USA versus personal income tax in Canada, but because it's a good idea to mention where you are if you're writing about taxes.

Yes, corps get all kinds of tax breaks, whereas individuals don't.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to all these questions is yes, i don't see the point in trying to obfuscate this with artificial complexity. What about HR, etc who use excel documents? IF they are using it rather than developing it, no. If they put in 5 hours a week writing code, yes for those 5 hours. This isn't hard.

So now every engineer has to record how many hours each day were spent doing "software development" vs. "software maintenance"/"overhead"/"etc..."?

In my experience, at least contractors at a major ISP have to.

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#488
post #47

This is less on that specific topic and more general: While I enjoy the hacker news forums a great deal, I've no relationship with YC as an org. I am not sure that YC has any particular interest in things that might impact me as an individual contributor in an org as much as it impacts them. Understandably there's an everyone for themselves aspect here, but that makes these kinds of call to actions a bit hollow to me…

This is something that both impacts them and impacts you if you're a developer. This tax treatment can increase the cost of a dev by 5-15% which leads to less hiring and a looser job market. Which will impact us even if we're not looking for work because most companies look at market rates when deciding raises.

Devils advocate might say

1. Lots of groups want to pay less tax to suit them. Just because it benefits us doesn't make the lobbying logical.

2. We call ourselves builders. But you presumably can't claim the cost of building your house against income tax. So why is out building different.

3. Come on; be honest: software development was always the loophole. You have coders building next year's features and you are saying that is a legitimate expense against this year's profit. You couldn't have made profit this year without a half implemented unreleased AI sparkle?

I really think the law is silly from a practical point of view but it's good insofar that other countries' silicon valleys need a chance ;)

Re: Tell HN: Help restore the tax deduction for software dev in the US (Section 174)

#489

So this is a huge problem, and one worth tackling, but I worry very much about the timing of this post in the context of the bill being brought before the Senate now. We should not implement horrific legislation just because we agree with a single provision. Calling your representatives is the right path, but you MUST be explicit that you do not support the current bill being brought forth that addresses this. Here a…

> We'll correct the ills of the 2017 administration in time

How? We have - at times - had democrats in charge since 2017 and they did nothing to resolve this either. We appear to be waiting for flying pigs.

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