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The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

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Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#151

Post by voidUpdate »

SlowTao wrote: post #73
vrosas wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Jewish friend once told me, specifically discussing this wire, that Jews consider finding loopholes in their own rules a national pastime. The same thing goes for the hotels where someone is paid to wave their hand in front of automatic doors so the guests don't force the door to "work" for them or the elevators that run 24/7, stopping at every floor so they don't have to even work by pressing a button.

I am not the brightest spark as it took me a few months of living in a heavily Jewish area to realise that the pedestrian traffics light were configured to run every cycle so they didn't have to press the button. Probably a lot more details I also missed.

In my area at least, if there is a pedestrian crossing across a single road, it will not be automatic, but if it's near a junction, where the lights would need to toggle anyway, the button does nothing, and it's just on a fixed timer

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#152

Post by thephyber »

focusgroup0 wrote: post #127

[flagged]

I interpret these acts (trying extremely hard to find loopholes in divine command) to be ways to absolve the observant religious person from the guilt. It has no affect on the god.

It’s more of a “I can argue that I checked the box when I meet my maker and have to explain myself.”

Also, hopefully nobody actually takes these rules so seriously that they end up hurting or killing anyone. There was a bicyclist who was injured when one of these lines fell far below installation height, but I’m thinking more about, for example, people who need to use hospital equipment during the Sabbath.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#153

Post by religiontrw »

graemep wrote: post #150
focusgroup0 wrote: post #127

[flagged]

Firstly, if the article is accurate, it still separates private from public spaces. An omnipotent and omniscient God would have made the rules anticipating good faith interpretations in different times and cultures. It still means accepting a restriction. I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law, but if I was asked to come up with a defence of this idea, I would argue it fulfils the purpose of…

>I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law

Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is.

Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity.

And just in case I hadn't said this enough: Judaism isn't Christianity.

I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Culture" bullshit when Christianity was founded from the start on not being Judaism and making a clean break with it. You might as well say Cristiano-Islamic culture since there was about as much impact on Western thought by Islam as there was by Judaism.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#155

Post by buran77 »

WJW wrote: post #139
focusgroup0 wrote: post #127

[flagged]

He isn't, of course. According to Jewish thought, God is perfect and therefore any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose. If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows w…

> any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose

> The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that.

So it's just man who decides "this is a loophole and God wants me to use it". Man decides what God really wants. Man who not only looks for ways around God's word but he also claims God wanted him to do this.

> If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers.

Did God ever say man should look for loopholes, exceptions, or reinterpretation of His word? Did God say what you just said or was it you who thinks that you know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments?

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#156

Post by graemep »

cperciva wrote: post #69
vrosas wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Jewish friend once told me, specifically discussing this wire, that Jews consider finding loopholes in their own rules a national pastime. The same thing goes for the hotels where someone is paid to wave their hand in front of automatic doors so the guests don't force the door to "work" for them or the elevators that run 24/7, stopping at every floor so they don't have to even work by pressing a button.

My favourite in this genre comes from a physics DPhil student I knew in Oxford: He insisted that it was permissible for him to work in the lab on Shabbat because after all he was really just studying the works of God and so it was no different in character from reading the Torah. I'm not sure entirely how serious this argument was, but he wasn't entirely unobservant; he made a point of not playing in orchestra on Fri…

In general a lot of scientists who are followers of theistic religions do think there is a religious motivation in their work, it that it is the study of God's creation so I would take it seriously.

I would argue that even a non-believer who studies the sciences in pursuit or truth and appreciates the beauty they reveal is doing God's work.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#157

Post by cam_l »

WJW wrote: post #141
gadders wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem to me that an omniscient God would see all these attempts to outwit him via looking at the small print, but then it's not me that would end up in hell or purgatory or whatever the Jewish equivalent is.

An omniscient God can't be outwitted by stuff in the small print. If there's a loophole in the small print, God put it there on purpose. If anything, He would be delighted that some of his followers read the holy books closely enough to find some of the easter eggs that He put in there. The whole idea of "the spirit vs the letter of the law" is a secular one that came up as a result of imperfect human lawmakers. But…

God didn't write the texts.. people did.

I mean, even apart from the fact god doesn't exist.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#158

Post by bambax »

WJW wrote: post #139
focusgroup0 wrote: post #127

[flagged]

He isn't, of course. According to Jewish thought, God is perfect and therefore any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose. If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows w…

> God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that.

When the word of God has obvious contradictions and inconsistencies what does it mean? Are there little traps that He set up for us mortals? Is God mischievous?

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#159

Post by pdabbadabba »

buran77 wrote: post #155
WJW wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He isn't, of course. According to Jewish thought, God is perfect and therefore any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose. If you have studied the holy texts deeply enough to find the loophole, that makes you more holy, not less. It's like an easter egg for true believers. The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows w…

> any loopholes in the rules were put there on purpose > The true sinners are those who think that they know what God wants better than what He actually passed down as commandments. God knows what He wants and wrote it down exactly like that. So it's just man who decides "this is a loophole and God wants me to use it". Man decides what God really wants. Man who not only looks for ways around God's word but he also cl…

I’m not a believer myself, but the response here seems obvious: by putting his law in writing, god invites (even demands) interpretation. What you are calling a “loophole” would just be a perhaps nonobvious but correct interpretation as applied to a particular set of facts.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#160

Post by graemep »

religiontrw wrote: post #153
graemep wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, if the article is accurate, it still separates private from public spaces. An omnipotent and omniscient God would have made the rules anticipating good faith interpretations in different times and cultures. It still means accepting a restriction. I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law, but if I was asked to come up with a defence of this idea, I would argue it fulfils the purpose of…

>I am Christian so do not think the same way about religious law Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is. Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity. And just in case I hadn't said this enough: Judaism isn't Christianity. I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Cultur…

> Judaism isn't Christianity any more than Islam is

All three share common beliefs and values. Christians and Jews worship the same God.

Islam IS closely related to Judaism and Christianity and the Quran explicitly states Muslims worship the same God.

> Trying to apply Christian norms to Jewish practices usually ends up in a pogrom when Christians realize that Judaism isn't Christianity.

BS. Thinking about where we agree and where we disagree leads to greater understanding. Pogroms are motivated by ethnic differences and othering people, not by theology, religious law, or anything thoughtful.

> I have no idea why the right in America has run with the whole "Judaeo-Christian Western Culture"

Is it a right wing concept? The term seems far more widely used to me than that. They see correct to me, because western culture (that of the left, as well as the right!) is a product of Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism, so you cannot ignore the Jewish influence.

> when Christianity was founded from the start on not being Judaism and making a clean break with it.

It was far from a clean break, and the intention was not a clean break. There was much argument (see Acts) in early Christianity about which Jewish practices to follow. Christians use Jewish scriptures and prayers and symbolism. The first Christians were Jews, and they would not even have considered themselves converts at that point, just those who followed the promised (to Jews!) messiah.

> You might as well say Cristiano-Islamic culture since there was about as much impact on Western thought by Islam as there was by Judaism.

Not true because Judaism and Christian culture had a greater and longer lasting history of geographical and cultural overlap than Christianity and Islam.

On the other hand, all three religions have a lot in common.

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