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The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

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Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#121
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after determining that the offered definition of “house” using the wire didn’t apply. That’s not a trick, that’s the system at work. > The legal system and morality and all areas of any complexity require judgment and decision making. I don't think it requires much real judgement to say that a wire does not make a home and that whole area is not a single big home. This is not some finely balanced call that requires…

This has been litigated well over a thousand years ago. To put it in modern legal terms, the legitimacy of an Eruv is a super precedent. It is discussed in depth in the Talmud, which is the clearest source of Jewish law. Even in modern law, courts can and do come up with some fairly peculiar readings at times. Particularly with old laws or the constitution itself which can, at times, be vague at best when applied in…

> This type of "trick" is foundational to... every common law system.

Disagree. Courts bend and stretch the law but only up to a point, and the more twisted interpretations tend to get overruled. Precedent is respected but only up to a point. And when people do apply a trick, everyone acknowledges that it's a trick, that they're subverting the will of the original drafters of the law because they think they know better than them.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> confined to their home during this part of the week You say that like it is a bad thing There is a related concept in Eastern Orthodoxy called oikonomia , or a relaxation of the laws. Roman Catholics or Episcopalians may know this as "dispensation". When the law becomes very complex and there is a concerted effort to get legalistic and eventually you end up with circumventions that are worthy of publishing news art…

Seems more akin to Christianity then, Pope is only recognized by roman catholics, and there's ridiculous amounts of Christianity doctrines that each interpret the writings differently.

That’s not entirely true, the Orthodox Christians recognize the Bishop of Rome as being an equal to any of their patriarchs.

Protestant Christians run the gamut from “it’s complicated” with the pope to “the pope is the literal devil”. Some denominations have no central authority at all, and qualifications for priesthood is determined entirely by the local community.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#123
post #87

I'm pretty sure that if there is a god, then the act of deliberately subverting what you believe to be his laws by exploiting what you perceive to be a technicality for your own convenience isn't going to work out in your favor in the end.

Wait until you hear about Kapparot.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So turning a key to open a door isn't work, but pushing an elevator button is?

Yes. There are several explanations for this, but the most popular ones are: 1) Making fires is prohibited work. Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. 2) We have a tradition of considering using electricity to be work. 3) This is stupid, not using electricity is more work. Just push the button. 4) This is stupid, but having a day when we aren't all on our phones is nice, so let's…

> Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire.

So is walking on a carpet and removing your sweater and almost anything involving fabrics and motion.

Is it really a useful definition of "fire" and "spark"? Most people think of those as different things. Fire implies oxygen, you put out fires with heavy blankets or with nitrogen gas since time immemorial. Sparks, as in tiny plasma discharges, does not require oxygen and can not be put out the same way.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#125
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The Jewish perspective is essentially that Jewish law stems from the creation of an all-knowing God, and therefore any seeming ‘loopholes’ must not only be known to Him but explicitly intended to exist. On this basis, it must be perfectly valid to use them!

That's just a loophole to justify exploiting loopholes.

Now you know why there are so many Jewish lawyers. Also Catholic.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#126

Why not make a tiny 10cm wire at the north pole to do the entire planet? And bless the oceans for unlimited holy water. Anyone who goes to the beach is baptised.

It does seem to me that an omniscient God would see all these attempts to outwit him via looking at the small print, but then it's not me that would end up in hell or purgatory or whatever the Jewish equivalent is.

A friend explained it to me like this: they believe God gave the rules, loopholes and all, exactly as intended. His followers were made in his own image. He delights in their creativity in discovering the true intent of his rules, which must include those loopholes because the rules are perfect. If he meant something different, he would’ve phrased the rules otherwise.

I’m not Jewish and this just my paraphrasing of an explanation I’ve heard a couple of times. The idea of God giving us a hacker nature and delighting in it makes me happy.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#128
post #92

[flagged]

Depends on the group, but generally the owner of the land that the drug is on needs to be involved in its creation. So, for a sidewalk, the local government. See this article that states that the path of a Houston eruv was leased from the city for 50 years for $1. https://jhvonline.com/mayor-signs-new-rental-agreement-for-h...

Wouldn't the natural thing to do be to bury it? That's what we do with other important wires. Hanging it off old telephone poles seems like a recipe for recurring disaster.

Does it need to be a metal wire? Or is, say, a plastic pipe enough? In the spirit of the other comments here, there are plenty of those already in place. Certainly with the involvement of the land owner, which in these cases probably are the city or the state.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who are involved in these traditions to hear their view.

Re: The wire that transforms much of Manhattan into one big, symbolic home (2017)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. There are several explanations for this, but the most popular ones are: 1) Making fires is prohibited work. Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. 2) We have a tradition of considering using electricity to be work. 3) This is stupid, not using electricity is more work. Just push the button. 4) This is stupid, but having a day when we aren't all on our phones is nice, so let's…

> Activating an electric switch causes a spark, which is kind of like a fire. So is walking on a carpet and removing your sweater and almost anything involving fabrics and motion. Is it really a useful definition of "fire" and "spark"? Most people think of those as different things. Fire implies oxygen, you put out fires with heavy blankets or with nitrogen gas since time immemorial. Sparks, as in tiny plasma dischar…

We are talking about religion here. Don't try to rationalise it.
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