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Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

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Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#701

[flagged]

Please, spare us. The most powerful men in the world are having a spat over social media like a pair of tweens, and you have the gall of calling out the left, as if the "left" (whatever the hell that means in the US, since you have no left, but I digress) was the one that voted them. Take a look in the mirror if you want to cry about dumb thoughts.

Please spare me you inability to understand what is being said.

Trump and Musk engaging in a social media bitch-slapping session is not at all what my comment was about. What they are doing is idiotic.

> Take a look in the mirror if you want to cry about dumb thoughts.

My comment is about something else. Oddly enough, you provide supporting evidence for what I have observed for many years. HN has become an echo chamber where only one point of view is tolerated and all others are rejected and attacked violently in many ways.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. I witnessed this up close in India where parties openly exist to benefit certain constituencies based on caste, language, religion and so on. It is horrifying to see this attitude take root in my a…

>It turns out that when elections are fought on the basis of identity (race, religion) etc corruption is actually considered a benefit! This is because the loyalists interpret this as "we" are winning and "they" are losing. So how could one design a political system so this behavior doesn't emerge / is not incentivized?

This has not emerged due to the political system, this has emerged due to the issues in the information economy.

The core issue is that news cannot compete with entertainment, and the firms that appeared after Murdoch on the right, insulate themselves and their politicians from the need to be accurate.

The cycle is essentially:

1) Fringe theory appears on the internet

2) Fringe theory is picked up by Notable Person (Someone who is able to come on Prime time Television)

3) Notable comes onto media network and repeats fringe theory

4) Reporting can now cover Fringe Theory as main stream

This economy of ideas shares little with the processes on the center and the left. People who come up with counter arguments don’t end up getting amplified.

This has demolished the exchange and debate of Ideas, and it has worked in all liberal democracies. Implacable Partisanship has been rewarded.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Northern Ireland has a similar system, with an executive built on a forced coalition. The executive is led by a First Minister and Deputy First Minister (despite the difference in title, they have exactly equal powers), who are selected from the largest party representing each of the two main communities. Major decisions require cross-community support - at least 50% of all those voting AND 50% of the representatives…

I don't know... Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three. Two guys with equal power is a recipe for inaction in critical moments.

In practice Northern Ireland is subordinate to Westminster in most "critical moments".

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#704
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a huge difference between the US and Australia here that you slightly touch on - in Australia, the Prime Minister can be removed by the ruling party at any time vs the US where removing the sitting President can only be done via a handful of items from the Constitution

Don't play coy. If a small number of Republican representatives decided they would impeach Trump they would have absolutely no problem getting the votes they need and you know it. They don't do it because that's not what they want.

Republicans have said clearly that they will only act when core support for trump drops. And that has not dropped no matter what.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#705

It's wild that a president can say, "I don't like Elon anymore, so out of retaliation, I'm canceling all his government contracts," and ~40% of the country doesn't see that as corruption in any way, shape, or form. Government contracts should not be based on whether or not the president likes the CEO, and the CEO says enough good things about the president. If you can cancel contacts not based on merit, then it shoul…

> This is literally the path that led the USSR to ruin. Or China to current-day prosperity. It’s hard to admit but it’s a double edged sword and there are winners and losers. Choose your poison wisely.

Saying this was not the path to China’s current-day prosperity is to place a VERY heavy weight, on a very thin branch.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#706

At least Berlusconi didn't have access to nuclear warheads. Seriously, I visited the US few times between 2005 and 2010 and each time people were raising the topic of Berlusconi. How can you have a president like that, who voted for him, bunga bunga etc etc. Now you know how you can have such personality in power too. With even more power.

I remember thinking this same thing during the first trump term as an American, with Berlusconi I used to be like "how the fuck can people accept this from their leaders" and then it came home. Obviously the string of war criminals we had prior weren't great either but Trump hits different.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#707
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those unaware of ~1900 US political history and how the spoils system was dismantled through political will: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service_reform_in_the_...

hopefully this time around it will go a little quicker, aka one term. project 2025 specifically pointed out all "disloyal" government employees should be kicked out and only those who bent a knee to trump should replace them, whatever their actual merit and ability to occupy the position

But is his plan to only stay one term?

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise that Elon can say Trump is “ungrateful” that be received $150 million in campaign donations because he withdrew the nomination for Elon’s NASA administrator. It’s just open bribery.

American democracy died on the day the supreme court overturned campaign finance restrictions. Since then US politics is a mere playground for billionaires and corporations.

Nah, America was on this trajectory from watergate. The day the other party decided they wanted to give up on bipartisan efforts, and started primary-ing their own for bipartisan behavior, you took a step down this path.

With the advent of Murdoch’s papers and news efforts, the infinite money and credibility glitch allowed for these specific circumstances to occur.

The question is whether the information economy is downstream of the political economy, or vice versa.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That platform statement does not contain values or ideals! It contains goals , which could possibly be achieved in very different ways. Values and ideals are then trotted out in support of the specific policies that purport to achieve those goals, and my point is that those ideals are highly inconsistent and seemingly sum up to mere blind anger. Your individual assertion that you don't care about a balanced budget is…

Just because people don’t have a grand unifying theory tying their preferences together doesn’t mean their preferences are motivated by “mere blind anger.” Trying to fit your preferences into some internally consistent framework is a high-IQ fixation. That’s especially true because society is hard to analyze. For example, I think it will be bad for society to encourage greater race and ethnic consciousness in a diver…

Ideals don't have to rise to the level of "grand unifying theory" to be meaningful. In fact given how poorly "grand unifying theories" tend to work, the whole point is that ideals sit in a sweet spot of complexity between there and a novel judgement for every new development.

I had an argument to write here, but I'm having a hard time getting it down to something concise and without a lot of inbaked assumptions, so I am just going to turn it into a question. Like, I am really trying to understand the continued support for Trump. I was an unaligned libertarian. I read Moldbug as he was writing. I got it. I disagreed from a philosophic information theoretic perspective (complexity multiplies, Urbit is just another "write once run anywhere"), but I still get the desire.

Then Trump. I totally got 2016 Trump support. The system seemed so entrenched and immutable, at least this guy is shaking things up and talking about real problems. I was the one telling my breathless progressive friends that he was likely to win. "But he's soooo racist" "uh-huh".

But then just the total lack of performance when actually in office? All performance, no execution besides who can be hurt this week? The only commonality I see is "owning the libs" where "the libs" means anyone who doesn't support Dear Leader. It just seems like one big tautology, for a lack of a real constrictive political direction or values.

I really want see where I am wrong, because none of these policies add up to making sense to me. Tariffs that harm our country, phrased in terms as if needing physical goods is somehow a strength? And then not even followed through on ? Attacking our allies for "not paying their share" while they buy into our economic empire and prop up our currency?

I get the populist anger, yes. But anger on its own does not produce good outcomes - in fact, quite the opposite.

I guess my question boils down to - if there are values besides anger, spite, owning the libs, and autocracy, then what exactly are they these days ? I don't mean the old mantras that are brought up to make people frustrated they didn't pan out, and then sidestepped when discussing current policy (like you've done with the deficit here). But the actual values that can be appealed to critique the current path? Heck, phrase it in terms of what would make you see a different candidate as even better than Trump.

Because like, for example:

> I think it will be bad for society to encourage greater race and ethnic consciousness in a diverse society

I agree with this. I don't call it "reverse racism", I just call it "racism" - a focus on collectivism in terms of group identity. But what I see in Trumpism isn't a repudiation of that general racism, but rather continued escalation of the dynamic merely with the "other side" winning. But I feel like if I tried to flesh that argument out by appealing to what you threw out as a supposed value, then I'm just going to run into a different newly-conjured value that overrides the first - in other words, rationalizations rather than actual values.

But please point out where I am wrong.

Re: Musk-Trump dispute includes threats to SpaceX contracts

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tyranny of the majority is another, often overlooked form of authoritarianism.

that's kind of what the USA is going through right now but it's more aptly described as "tyranny of the plurality" because Trump didn't win either majority of of registered voters or majority of the actual vote.

Regardless of tiresome partisan hyperbole, I don't regard the substance of this administration's actions as any more authoritarian the previous or the status quo. In the specific instances where state power has been expanded, I regard it as part of the general trend of expansion. The trend is more indicative of the overall incentives and structure of governance, rather than specific political actors. Similarly, partisan recriminations fit with the same pattern.
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