Live data from Hacker News

Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

nytimes.com

51–60 of 108 posts

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried scanning the article to find out what made it illegal, and was fairly disappointed to find that (once again) I'd been lured by a sensationalist headline.

Not being up to code makes it illegal to occupy the building. I'm not quite sure why the NY Times would leave something like that out; it's possible that code violations are more prevalent in NY and thus the import need not be explained.

Really? Of all the comments on this thread, this is the comment that gets downvoted?

If you're going to downvote a statement of fact, at least explain why you think it's wrong.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#52
post #48
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of uninformed comments, weren't you the guy pounding his chest as a lawyer about how no companies actually take international tax law into account, who then got tooled when the Double Irish was pointed out? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3565426 You were colossally wrong about something ostensibly in your domain of expertise, and then too you said something similar ["I do international tax for a living.…

Lol. No, in fact you were the one who tried to "tool" me. You attempted to point out that: Well, if you are an international tax lawyer, obviously moves like the Double Irish show that the base of incorporation matters quite a bit: which is not true. The Double Irish is a matter of where a company is headquartered , which has a distinct legal meaning that is not the same thing as a company's "base" of operations. The…

Look, you were just wrong, and you know you were wrong. The substance of your comment was that multinationals just consider tax a cost of doing business, and that new taxes alone wouldn't motivate them to consider moving operations overseas.

That's flatly wrong. The distinction between US and Irish tax code is and was indeed highly material. And one you were not aware of, despite being an "international tax lawyer". Moreover, the Double Irish is by no means the only workaround. Microsoft has a pretty sweet thing going with Puerto Rico:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/28/microsoft-tax-haven...

And there's a lot more where that came from:

http://www.businesspundit.com/25-corporations-that-pay-less-...

Clearly there actually are a myriad of strategies which multinationals can use to minimize their tax bill by exploiting differences between countries, and even more clearly those countries with the most favorable tax regimes are the ones chosen as places to expand. Which is exactly the phenomenon whose existence you denied:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3565426

So tell me this: why anyone would want to engage you as an "international tax lawyer" if you don't have the knowledge to actually, y'know, help them minimize their tax bill?

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#53
post #41

I think this just bureaucracy run amok. It's something from an 80s movie. Regulations have their place and I don't want to get into any discussion about "big government" but I think this is a bit too far for something that has become such a community icon. Also, I find it odd if they are already at $173K, I would think there would be several alums or those sympathetic that could shell out a measly $80K, that's a roun…

Or, you know, they could have just made sure the building was up to code first, like every other business, organization, and individual . Being a startup does not give them carte blanche to ignore basic laws of society, especially not laws which address actual safety concerns. [Of relevance to Hacker Dojo: see pretty much every mass casualty club/nightclub tragedy of the past decade, in which dozens died in each inst…

It's hard to argue that point. I'm under the assumption that they didn't know what it would turn into when they started. They definitely were taking on certain liability.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary." "Arguably"? No, they're absolutely necessary. It's a multi-tenant building. Why should my property and livelihood be threatened by your inability (or lack of desire) to follow the fire code? "2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]." A reasonable MVP should include the ability for a social, interactive space to be inclusive.…

http://mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=5207 The city also began pressing for more codes to be met. Weekly rattled off what appear to be significant costs: $150,000 to make three bathrooms compliant with the American Disabilities Act, $130,000 for fire sprinklers, and potentially thousands more in building permit fees and other improvements. "They want us to commit to a traffic study, build concrete walls around t…

>Most of the startups who've encountered specific regulations (Uber, AirBnB, Square, among them) tend to be much more skeptical of their wisdom than the public at large.

What a surprise, the people whom the regulations prevent from making more money are less convinced about their wisdom than the people whom those regulations are ostensibly designed to protect.

>you want to force them to comply with certain cultural mores that you consider the basics of civilized society.

I would imagine that there are certain cultural mores you consider to be the basics of civilized society that you're okay with forcing people to comply with. Like, say, the illegality of stealing.

>I don't want to live in a place where other people aren't content with making their own places wheelchair-accessible, but want to impose their own ethical code on me as well, via fines and DOJ sweeps, among other mechanisms.

What if I were to say, "I don't want to live in a place where other people aren't content with allowing black people in their restaurant, but want to impose their own ethical code on me as well." It's certainly a bit of an exaggeration, since it doesn't cost you anything to allow black people in your restaurant whereas a wheelchair accessible bathroom does, but quite obviously this isn't as black and white (no pun intended) as you make it out to be.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=5207 The city also began pressing for more codes to be met. Weekly rattled off what appear to be significant costs: $150,000 to make three bathrooms compliant with the American Disabilities Act, $130,000 for fire sprinklers, and potentially thousands more in building permit fees and other improvements. "They want us to commit to a traffic study, build concrete walls around t…

The other day I went past the República Cromañon on the bus. The street in front of it has finally been reopened. It's been closed ever since 196 music fans were burned to death because its operators thought the fire regulations were "safety theater", and chained shut the emergency exits. You can compare the death tolls from similar earthquakes in places that have effective earthquake building codes (like Chile) and…

Well, as I said, it always starts with things like fire codes and then goes from there to spending tens of thousands on traffic studies. $15,000 for fire alarms might be ok. $150,000 for wheelchair accessible bathrooms is, in my view, overkill. They charge $100/month; that would mean at least 125 memberships just to pay for the bathrooms.

But, just taking your specific example for a second, that actually seems to argue in favor of my point that these regulations are safety theater...because the Cromanon people received a permit!

  www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/world/americas/21briefs-7MEMBERSOFBA_BRF.html?_r=1

  ...evidence showed that the club was given a permit 
  although it lacked basic measures like fire extinguishers.
A permit was issued, but the place wasn't safe. So that argues in favor of the concept that it was safety theater. Just like how the TSA doesn't actually protect against terrorism, it just tries to appear like it does.

As for the next move, this is a Rorschach test. One response is to increase the stringency of the regulation, indirectly fining all other businesses for the Cromanon incident. An alternative response is to penalize the regulators involved, in the same way that Arthur Andersen paid a penalty for giving a thumbs up on Enron.

The key difference is whether there is one government regulator or many distributed and competing reviewers. If there is only one regulator, the inevitable result of any terrible incident will be to monotonically ratchet up regulations on everyone, TSA style, with the only concern being PR and no heed for costs. Alternatively, if there is competition among reviewers, then that organically leads to an ongoing assessment of whether a particular rule is worth the costs or not.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#56
post #16

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/384590180/an-events-spac... ^ Chip in here if you are inclined to support fellow hackers. They need to raise $250,000: “If they can’t comply, they can’t use the building as they want to,” said Anthony Ghiossi, the chief building official for the city. Hacker Dojo opened without a permit, Mr. Ghiossi pointed out. It is currently prohibited from hosting events that draw more than 49…

What I'm not seeing in these articles about this place is any sense of responsibility by Hacker Dojo's owners for not doing the due diligence to know what they were getting into in the first place. I don't consider well-intentioned cluelessness a barrier to innovation but your mileage may vary. Ellis Berns doesn't sound like a villain to me but rather just a guy in a tough situation. If the town of Mountain View does…

> If the town of Mountain View doesn't enforce their codes here, and if something like the fire in the video posted here were to occur, they'd get their keesters sued out of their pants and rightly so.

No, MV wouldn't get sued. Or rather, if someone did sue, said someone would be at risk for sanctions for filing a frivolous lawsuit.

US govts have no obligation to enforce their laws. They certainly have no liability for failure to do so.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#57
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"1. Sprinklers and fire exits? Arguably necessary." "Arguably"? No, they're absolutely necessary. It's a multi-tenant building. Why should my property and livelihood be threatened by your inability (or lack of desire) to follow the fire code? "2. ADA compliant bathrooms and wheelchair ramps? Not part of a reasonable MVP[1]." A reasonable MVP should include the ability for a social, interactive space to be inclusive.…

To my mind, regulators could effectively issue recommendations but that should be where their power stops. If you do not want to have sprinklers and fire exits, it should be your responsibility, and your responsibility as a person entering that building to understand the risks of being there - and refuse to enter/stay inside if you think the lack of sprinklers/fire exits is posing you a serious concern. And you menti…

there is a vanishingly small percentage of establishments for which is makes economic sense to be accessible to various forms of handicapped people. the federal ada laws are a way of spreading the cost of catering to the disabled across all of society, rather than concentrating it on the heads of the disabled themselves.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#58
This is rent-seeking, plain and simple. As municipalities slide ever closer toward insolvency, expect to see these spurious regulations enforced and enacted, ostensibly fronted by bleeding-heart do-gooders, but with the express intent to extort as much money as possible from productive individuals.

Re: Silicon Valley Techies Fight to Save a Popular but Illegal Haven

#59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://mv-voice.com/news/show_story.php?id=5207 The city also began pressing for more codes to be met. Weekly rattled off what appear to be significant costs: $150,000 to make three bathrooms compliant with the American Disabilities Act, $130,000 for fire sprinklers, and potentially thousands more in building permit fees and other improvements. "They want us to commit to a traffic study, build concrete walls around t…

The other day I went past the República Cromañon on the bus. The street in front of it has finally been reopened. It's been closed ever since 196 music fans were burned to death because its operators thought the fire regulations were "safety theater", and chained shut the emergency exits. You can compare the death tolls from similar earthquakes in places that have effective earthquake building codes (like Chile) and…

A century ago, people also lit Christmas trees with candles (electric Christmas lights were not widely available until 1903).

Here's the thing about 'relevant facts': you could each have a mountain of them (the same mountain, even): and still reach diametrically opposing conclusions, precisely because this is a philosophical debate.

As with most political debates, this one can easily be reduced to two schools of thought: either the individual exists for themselves, wherein the highest moral value is liberty, or the individual exists at the behest of society, wherein the highest moral value is servitude.

In the case of the latter, it is a part of society's mandate to protect itself from the individual. The only question becomes, how far do you go? As evidenced by this thread, intelligent people can disagree about what is reasonable or necessary.

Science/ help us if we continue our relentless march toward democracy, where the answer to that question increasingly derives from society's lowest common denominator.

Edit: Exposition/self-indulgent philosophizing.

Post reply on HN