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The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

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Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#71
post #45

I think the intuition the authors are trying to capture is that they believe the models are omniscient, but also dim-witted. And the question they are collectively trying to ask is whether this will continue forever. I've never seen this question quantified in a really compelling way, and while interesting, I'm not sure this PDF succeeds, at least not well-enough to silence dissent. I think AI maximalists will contin…

> I think the intuition the authors are trying to capture is that they believe the models are omniscient, but also dim-witted.

We keep assigning adjectives to this technology that anthropomorphize the neat tricks we've invented. There's nothing "omniscient" or "dim-witted" about these tools. They have no wit. They do not think or reason.

All Large "Reasoning" Models do is generate data that they use as context to generate the final answer. I.e. they do real-time tuning based on synthetic data.

This is a neat trick, but it doesn't solve the underlying problems that plague these models like hallucination. If the "reasoning" process contains garbage, gets stuck in loops, etc., the final answer will also be garbage. I've seen sessions where the model approximates the correct answer in the first "reasoning" step, but then sabotages it with senseless "But wait!" follow-up steps. The final answer ends up being a mangled mess of all the garbage it generated in the "reasoning" phase.

The only reason we keep anthropomorphizing these tools is because it makes us feel good. It's wishful thinking that markets well, gets investors buzzing, and grows the hype further. In reality, we're as close to artificial intelligence as we were a decade ago. What we do have are very good pattern matchers and probabilistic data generators that can leverage the enormous amount of compute we can throw at the problem. Which isn't to say that this can't be very useful, but ascribing human qualities to it only muddies the discussion.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#72
post #6

This is easily explained by accepting that there is no such thing as LRMs. LRMs are just LLMs that iterate on its own answers more (or provides itself more context information of a certain type). The reasoning loop on an "LRM" will be equivalent to asking a regular LLM to "refine" its own response, or "consider" additional context of a certain type. There is no such thing as reasoning basically, as it was always a me…

The million dollar question is how far can one get on this trick. Maybe this is exactly how our own brains operate? If not, what fundamental building blocks are missing to get there.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#73
post #19

I've seen this too often, papers that ask questions they don't even bother to properly define. > Are these models capable of generalizable reasoning, or are they leveraging different forms of pattern matching? Define reasoning, define generalizable, define pattern matching. For additional credits after you have done so, show humans are capable of what you just defined as generalizable reasoning.

In the context of this paper, I think "generalizable reasoning" means that finding a method to solve the puzzle and thus being able to execute the method on puzzle instances of arbitrary complexity.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a test, I asked Gemini 2.5 Flash and Gemini 2.5 Pro to decode a single BASE64 string. Flash answered correctly in ~2 seconds, at most. Pro answered very wrongly after thinking and elaborating for ~5 minutes. Flash was also giving a wrong answer for the same string in the past, but it improved. Prompt was the same: "Hey, can you decode $BASE64_string?" I have no further comments.

well that's not a very convincing argument. That's just a failure to recognize when the use of a tool- base64 decoder- is needed, not a reasoning problem at all, right?

That's not really a cop out here: both models had access to the same tools.

Realistically there are many problems that non-reasoning models do better on, especially when the answer cannot be solved by a thought process: like recalling internal knowledge.

You can try to teach the model the concept of a problem where thinking will likely steer it away from the right answer, but at some point it becomes like the halting problem... how does the model reliably think its way into the realization a given problem is too complex to be thought out?

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#75

I have a somewhat similar point of view to the one voiced by other people, but I like to think about it slightly differently, so I'll chime in - here's my take (although, admittedly, I'm operating with a quite small reasoning budget (5 minutes tops)): Time and again, for centuries - with the pace picking up dramatically in recent decades - we thought we were special and we were wrong. Sun does not rotate around the e…

I don't see how heliocentrisim or calculators have any bearing on the uniqueness of humans.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#76
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're similar to self-driving vehicles. Both are around the corner, but neither can negotiate the turn.

And commerically viable nuclear fusion

I harvest fusion energy every single day... It's just there in the sky, for free!

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#77

Man, remember when everyone was like 'AGI just around the corner!' Funny how well the Gartner hype cycle captures these sorts of things

They're similar to self-driving vehicles. Both are around the corner, but neither can negotiate the turn.

I saw your comment and counted — in May I took a Waymo thirty times.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#78
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure if you mean this to refute something in what I've written but to be clear I am not arguing for or against what the authors think. I'm trying to state why I think there is a disconnect between them and more optimistic groups that work on AI.

I think that commenter was disagreeing with this line: > because omniscient-yet-dim-witted models terminate at "superhumanly assistive" It might be that with dim wits + enough brute force (knowledge, parallelism, trial-and-error, specialisation, speed) models could still substitute for humans and transform the economy in short order.

And we have a good example of a dimwitted, brute-force process creating intelligent designs - evolution.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#79
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the easy part is done but the hard part is so hard it takes years to progress There is also no guarantee of continued progress to a breakthrough. We have been through several "AI Winters" before where promising new technology was discovered and people in the field were convinced that the breakthrough was just around the corner and it never came. LLMs aren't quite the same situation as they do have some undeniable u…

> We have been through several "AI Winters" before Yeah, remember when we spent 15 years (~2000 to ~2015) calling it “machine learning” because AI was a bad word? We use so much AI in production every day but nobody notices because as soon as a technology becomes useful, we stop calling it AI. Then it’s suddenly “just face recognition” or “just product recommendations” or “just [plane] autopilot” or “just adaptive cr…

I don’t think there’s any “AI” in aircraft autopilots.

Re: The Illusion of Thinking: Strengths and limitations of reasoning models [pdf]

#80
post #71
post #45

I think the intuition the authors are trying to capture is that they believe the models are omniscient, but also dim-witted. And the question they are collectively trying to ask is whether this will continue forever. I've never seen this question quantified in a really compelling way, and while interesting, I'm not sure this PDF succeeds, at least not well-enough to silence dissent. I think AI maximalists will contin…

> I think the intuition the authors are trying to capture is that they believe the models are omniscient, but also dim-witted. We keep assigning adjectives to this technology that anthropomorphize the neat tricks we've invented. There's nothing "omniscient" or "dim-witted" about these tools. They have no wit. They do not think or reason. All Large "Reasoning" Models do is generate data that they use as context to gen…

I am not sure we are on the same page that the point of my response is that this paper is not enough to prevent exactly the argument you just made.

In any event, if you want to take umbrage with this paper, I think we will need to back up a bit. The authors use a mostly-standardized definition of "reasoning", which is widely-accepted enough to support not just one, but several of their papers, in some of the best CS conferences in the world. I actually think you are right that it is reasonable to question this definition (and some people do), but I think it's going to be really hard for you to start that discussion here without (1) saying what your definition specifically is, and (2) justifying why its better than theirs. Or at the very least, borrowing one from a well-known critique like, e.g., Gebru's, Bender's, etc.

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