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How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

spectrum.ieee.org

271–280 of 454 posts

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#271

Drone warfare has always been equal parts distressing (it’s impersonal, it’s too easy to leverage, and therefore too easy to abuse) and incredible (ultra-thin fiber as a kite line? Brilliant!) to me. These advances are no different. That said, I do fret we’re staring down a new age of guerrilla warfare. Drones are cheap, widely available, and increasingly autonomous. Their countermeasures are either impractical for c…

> The programming can be set-and-forget, meaning operations can be staged months ahead of deployment and make it difficult to find or prevent.

This is something I haven't considered before. What's the worst case here? Is it feasible for me to go live on a farm in , buy a fleet of DJI drones at flea markets etc, stick something harmful to them, then hide them in the woods.

I can move away, wait a year or two, and then have them fly to the nearest metro area and wreak havoc. This seems to be cheap and relatively straightforward, and hard to detect. What am I missing?

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#272
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US seems to have given up on the concept of being on the "good side" of anyone and retreated to the safety of bullying and threatening to invade Canada (as a "joke"?)

Most people have given up the concept of being on the "good side". That's how Trumpism can gain any traction at all . The amount of international engagement Russia had as Putin made himself tsar was embarrassing, and to a person with no scruples if the money is right - like Trump - it just illustrates that the guardrails aren't really there.

> Most people have given up the concept of being on the "good side".

“The revolution eats its partisans” is the most accurate description of it. People on “the good side” turn against their peers for not being on the good side enough. To wit, people who turn away don’t generally first notice that the good side isn’t so good; they first notice being bullied by that side, then they reflect on what it means to support the good side’s points of view (spoiler: A crime against humanity).

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#273
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of we could use the opposite of isolationism, something being cut by governments at this time: soft power. Aid programmes and helping some of the more impoverished countries grow. Bombing Middle Eastern countries has been tried for about a century. It doesn’t seem to have helped.

Let's not be naive. Aid programs are a great idea when practical, and I'm certainly not in favor of indiscriminate bombing. But unfortunately in many countries, including Middle East conflict zones, any foreign aid is just stolen by local armed groups and used to fund terrorist activities. How do you think the leaders of Hamas accumulated billions in foreign bank accounts?

Leaders of Hamas has no bank accounts, AFAIK. Did you mean cryptocurrencies? If so, it's unlikely that these funds are personal savings.

Usually, locals doesn't steal from locals in conflict zones, because their throats, or throats of their families, will be cut by other armed locals in no time.

Invaders and mercenaries often rob or kill locals in many, many cases.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure it would destroy whoever is on the other side of those shipping containers too though

> whoever is on the other side of those shipping containers Could take a while to figure that out. It took days/weeks to figure out the 9/11 attacks with some certainty.

I'm not sure what that does for whoever initiates the attack. They still eventually get found out and unless they've managed to conquer the US, everyone is now bankrupt.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange - blocking GPS is typical around military sites. So, assume the drones were hard-coded to zero a location - they couldn't do it, as GPS would be blocked. They had to be piloted. Interesting.

In addition to the other reply, it might have been done with CV. Identify landmarks to get bearings, drop bomb on thing that looks like airplane.

Saw something saying they trained them on old Soviet planes at a military museum

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/53784

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#277
post #231

Drone warfare has always been equal parts distressing (it’s impersonal, it’s too easy to leverage, and therefore too easy to abuse) and incredible (ultra-thin fiber as a kite line? Brilliant!) to me. These advances are no different. That said, I do fret we’re staring down a new age of guerrilla warfare. Drones are cheap, widely available, and increasingly autonomous. Their countermeasures are either impractical for c…

> As an engineer, I am fascinated by it all. As a human, I am horrified that we democratized violence on this scale. How do you even defend against this in a terrorist use case? When a small drone with a grenade or homemade explosive is so accessible? Any Christmas market in central Europe these days is surrounded by car barriers to prevent mass run-overs, but what do you do when soon someone has the idea of dropping…

>How do you even defend against this in a terrorist use case? When a small drone with a grenade or homemade explosive is so accessible?

I can see this from the other perspective. I've read stories for the past 30 years now about police forces and swat teams abusing people, murdering people because someone filled out the address wrong on a warrant, etc. And I wonder, in the coming years, if those sorts of scenarios will be quite as one-sided as they are today. What will that world look like?

>Answering my own question I guess you can already throw one manually without a drone.

Sure, but can you throw one from 2 miles away, can you throw 30 simultaneously? Can you then instantly escape without much of any evidence of who you are being left behind, not even a blurry traffic cam picture? The scale of the mayhem is a quality all of its own.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#278
post #271

Drone warfare has always been equal parts distressing (it’s impersonal, it’s too easy to leverage, and therefore too easy to abuse) and incredible (ultra-thin fiber as a kite line? Brilliant!) to me. These advances are no different. That said, I do fret we’re staring down a new age of guerrilla warfare. Drones are cheap, widely available, and increasingly autonomous. Their countermeasures are either impractical for c…

> The programming can be set-and-forget, meaning operations can be staged months ahead of deployment and make it difficult to find or prevent. This is something I haven't considered before. What's the worst case here? Is it feasible for me to go live on a farm in , buy a fleet of DJI drones at flea markets etc, stick something harmful to them, then hide them in the woods. I can move away, wait a year or two, and then…

Not much. Autonomous targeting and control are quite new and currently take a fair bit of knowledge and skill to get right, but I expect those barriers to lower dramatically in the coming years. There might be power issues with such a long delay, but I'm not sure. I think the main drawback once this tech gets slightly more widespread is that most people who want to terrorize cities don't want to wait a year or two to do it.

For long running conflicts (Israel vs Iran for example) I expect we'll see some fascinating and horrifying attacks in the near to medium term. Of course anti-drone tech is also evolving quickly and I expect that to continue so the shelf life of any specific attack will probably continue to be rather short.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#279
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US seems to have given up on the concept of being on the "good side" of anyone and retreated to the safety of bullying and threatening to invade Canada (as a "joke"?)

Most people have given up the concept of being on the "good side". That's how Trumpism can gain any traction at all . The amount of international engagement Russia had as Putin made himself tsar was embarrassing, and to a person with no scruples if the money is right - like Trump - it just illustrates that the guardrails aren't really there.

> Most people have given up the concept of being on the "good side".

In US.

Re: How Ukraine’s killer drones are beating Russian jamming

#280
post #231

Drone warfare has always been equal parts distressing (it’s impersonal, it’s too easy to leverage, and therefore too easy to abuse) and incredible (ultra-thin fiber as a kite line? Brilliant!) to me. These advances are no different. That said, I do fret we’re staring down a new age of guerrilla warfare. Drones are cheap, widely available, and increasingly autonomous. Their countermeasures are either impractical for c…

> As an engineer, I am fascinated by it all. As a human, I am horrified that we democratized violence on this scale. How do you even defend against this in a terrorist use case? When a small drone with a grenade or homemade explosive is so accessible? Any Christmas market in central Europe these days is surrounded by car barriers to prevent mass run-overs, but what do you do when soon someone has the idea of dropping…

I mean…you can’t, at least not right now, not for civvies. Let’s consider some of the current countermeasures:

* Flak/Shrapnel/Birdshot: An excellent last-minute defense if you’re calm enough to line up an accurate shot, but data shows that equipping civilians with these sorts of weapons en masse is a bad idea for safety and well-being. That’s a no-go.

* Nets: Popular for defense, but it’s a matter of time before drones adapt by flying under the nets or changing payload to something to dissolve it. A kamikaze drone could also be enough to destroy an opening for more to swarm. In a civilian context, they’re an excellent deterrent for high-population areas, for now, albeit unsightly.

* Buildings: Safest for now, provided the structure is relatively hardened and the windows are secured. But most civilian structures aren’t guarded against explosions or external attacks, and even those that are require a human to vacate it eventually. Once inside however, there’s more options for stopping an attack - for now - like interior netting, small arms with pellets or buckshot, or even lasers to blind the optical sensors. Impractical for civilian deployment at scale, presently, and highly variable.

* Jammers: Good against piloted drones, but as the article points out, the current crop of dev work is geared towards autonomous slaughterbots instead of human decision-making. Jammers are restricted by most countries and, if left functioning after an attack, could hinder first responders. If left on constantly, would disrupt civilian work. So that’s a no-go.

* LASERS! Probably the best deterrent in the short term for civilians, I would wager. A randomized strobe of a high-powered IR laser could devastate a swarm of drones’ optics, making navigation or target acquisition difficult or impossible. Sticking a piece of protective glass on the sensor would likely nullify it long enough to finish its mission, though.

And that’s what distresses me, ultimately. The future depicted in Slaughterbots or Horizon is rapidly approaching, where autonomous drones can murder with impunity and are affordable enough that any threat actor could get their hands on it. Combined with modern databases of humans - faces, biometrics, profiles, locations, habits, schedules - we’re nearing an era where assassination or murder is a drone away.

That is what horrifies me. And if there’s one thing my time in the defense industry taught me, it’s that nobody is trustworthy with that kind of power. Companies making these absolutely will use them (or condone their use) against dissidents, opposition, regulators, and governments. Pandora’s Box is already open, and I don’t think enough folks appreciate the horrors it will bring.

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