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What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

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Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#11

Post by EGreg »

rightbyte wrote: post #4
HPsquared wrote: post #2

There was a brief window where photography and videos became widespread so events could be documented and evidenced. Generative AI is drawing that period to an end, and we're returning to "who said / posted this" and having to trust the source rather than the image/message itself. It's a big regression.

Videos and photos have been faked for a long time. Nothing has changed in that regard but decreasing the effort required somewhat.

"Nothing has changed in that regard" really, nothing?

Does anyone other than me notice this common tendency on HN:

1. Blockhain use case mentioned? Someone must say "blockchain doesn't solve any problems" no matter what, and always ignoring any actual substance of what's being done until pressed.

2. AI issue mentioned? Someone must say "nothing at all has changed, this problem has always existed" downplaying the vast leaps forward in scale, and quality of output, ignoring any details until pressed.

It's like when people feel the need to preface "there is nothing wrong with capitalism, but" before critiquing capitalism. You will not criticize the profit.

It's not really a shibboleth. What's the name for this type of thing, groupthink?

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#12

Post by EGreg »

Applejinx wrote: post #10

One point to bear in mind is, lies have proven more effective in the ABSENCE of evidence. I don't know how many times I've run across the idea of 'guess what, Portland (or New York City, or whatever) is burned to the ground because of the enemies!' This gets believed not because there's evidence, but because it's making a statement about enemies that is believed. So for whoever finds lies compelling, I don't think it…

Well, when the evidence can be faked, it becomes harder to claim it.

You've seen the "post-truth" attitudes already from the right, after "fake news" of 2016 makes them regard everything from climate change to vaccine data, as faked data with an agenda. It's interesting because for decades or centuries the right wing was usually the one which believed in our existing institutions, and it was the left that was counter-cultural and anti-authoritarian.

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#13

Post by raincole »

rightbyte wrote: post #4
HPsquared wrote: post #2

There was a brief window where photography and videos became widespread so events could be documented and evidenced. Generative AI is drawing that period to an end, and we're returning to "who said / posted this" and having to trust the source rather than the image/message itself. It's a big regression.

Videos and photos have been faked for a long time. Nothing has changed in that regard but decreasing the effort required somewhat.

People had been able to send messages to each other for a very long time. However the internet still changed a lot of things.

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#14

Post by thomasahle »

rightbyte wrote: post #4
HPsquared wrote: post #2

There was a brief window where photography and videos became widespread so events could be documented and evidenced. Generative AI is drawing that period to an end, and we're returning to "who said / posted this" and having to trust the source rather than the image/message itself. It's a big regression.

Videos and photos have been faked for a long time. Nothing has changed in that regard but decreasing the effort required somewhat.

Things like the government MAHA report, full of fake references to papers that don't exist, probably didn't happen as blatantly before AI. Even if people could easily have lied back then too. The ease of with which AI lies (or "hallucinates") makes a qualitative difference.

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#15

Post by EGreg »

HPsquared wrote: post #8
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #3

> The concern is valid. But there’s a deeper worry, one that involves the enlargement not of our gullibility but of our cynicism. OpenAI CEO Sam Altman has voiced worries about the use of AI to influence elections, but he says the threat will go away once “everyone gets used to it.” > Some experts believe the opposite is true: The risks will grow as we acclimate ourselves to the presence of deepfakes. Once we take th…

It's the same idea as "lies spread faster than truth". Lies are often crafted to be especially juicy and salacious. Gossip has always been a problem; GenAI just extends this problem to other media.

What is it that makes some people on HN pop up to always respond to any issue with AI with a version of "it was always this way, the problem always existed, AI does nothing fundamentally new". When it's clear that huge leaps in scale, coordination, and output quality accessible to anyone, are exactly what produces "new" use cases. Not to mention that swarms of agents are a fundamentally new thing, that doesn't require humans in the loop at all.

Notice that this phenomenon didn't happen as much on HN for other technologies, e.g. when the iPhone came out, very few people said "well, this is nothing new, computers existed for a long time, this is just minituarizing it and unplugging it from the wall."

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#16

Post by SupremumLimit »

rightbyte wrote: post #4
HPsquared wrote: post #2

There was a brief window where photography and videos became widespread so events could be documented and evidenced. Generative AI is drawing that period to an end, and we're returning to "who said / posted this" and having to trust the source rather than the image/message itself. It's a big regression.

Videos and photos have been faked for a long time. Nothing has changed in that regard but decreasing the effort required somewhat.

Your comment follows two persistent HN tropes: (1) ignoring the article, which deals precisely with why the cost of production matters, and (2) steadfastly refusing to recognise that quantity has a quality of its own - in this case a monumental reduction in production cost clearly leads to a tectonic reshaping of the information landscape.

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#17

Post by A_D_E_P_T »

Vilian wrote: post #5
HPsquared wrote: post #2

There was a brief window where photography and videos became widespread so events could be documented and evidenced. Generative AI is drawing that period to an end, and we're returning to "who said / posted this" and having to trust the source rather than the image/message itself. It's a big regression.

Would be very interesting to require generative AI companies to log their created images for that purpose, it isn't gonna eliminate self hosted alternative, but it can destroy any fake evidence faster

Logging them would be rather cost prohibitive, but images can be hashed + (invisibly) watermarked and video can be hashed frame by frame, in such a way that each frame authenticates the one before it. Surely there's a way to durably mark generated content.

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#18

Post by tokai »

thomasahle wrote: post #14
rightbyte wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Videos and photos have been faked for a long time. Nothing has changed in that regard but decreasing the effort required somewhat.

Things like the government MAHA report, full of fake references to papers that don't exist, probably didn't happen as blatantly before AI. Even if people could easily have lied back then too. The ease of with which AI lies (or "hallucinates") makes a qualitative difference.

Fake citations has always been common. Before they weren't just straight up fabrications. The cited papers usually exists, they just don't contain what is claimed by the referring paper.

At least made up citations are quick and easy to denounce.

Re: What Happens When AI-Generated Lies Are More Compelling Than the Truth?

#19

Post by EGreg »

raincole wrote: post #13
rightbyte wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Videos and photos have been faked for a long time. Nothing has changed in that regard but decreasing the effort required somewhat.

People had been able to send messages to each other for a very long time. However the internet still changed a lot of things.

I'll admit there were a few people doing the "HN thing" and saying "nothing really changed" when the Internet came out... but it was as a joke:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs-YpQj88ew&t=3m20s

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