571–580 of 649 posts
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To respond to your edit, consider that you're basically doing a version of the trolley problem where you have the choice to redirect the track from killing one person, to killing two, but you get a million bucks for doing so. No, this is definitely not right. Consider first the non-repeated case. There are two possibilities: 1. You do not press the button. Nothing changes about the world. 2. You press the button an…
But can't you see what you're doing? You're simply rationalizing everything, repeatedly, until you find a reason to press the button. To the point that you're convincing yourself that in the scenario where you're literally killing people for money, that you're actually saving people. And what you're doing is what humanity naturally does. The people we view as awful in history certainly acknowledged they're doing some…
Would you steer the trolley to the track with one man on it? If yes, and you believe you could save more than one person with $1 million, then you would also press the button!
> And what you're doing is neither novel nor surprising. This is the exact rationalization most of every person we now view in history as awful also used. They acknowledge they're doing some awful things in the present, but rationalize it by imagining the utopia that it will bring in.
This is also true for the trolley problem! He who pulls the lever does an awful thing (kills one man) in the pursuit of some benefit to society (saving five others).
(The ethics of the trolley problem itself have been discussed at length, so I don’t think we need to repeat those arguments here.)
And again, many religious wars have been and are fought! Religious leaders haven’t theoretically killed people in the pursuit of utopia, they have literally, actually done that!
After all: that’s the subject of our discussion: not whether people are moral, but whether religious people are more moral than the baseline.
[flagged]
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's clear that that proper practice for a wealthy person would be to immediately jettison the wealth. Matt 19:21 NIV: "Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” So if you're wealthy and poor people exist , you're in a state of sin. Christianity is an apocalyptic religion, you're to assume the world could en…
The story in Matthew 19:21 has exactly the same point and precedes this very parable. > But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [Then follows the camel and the needle.] The rich man fails the test because he is unable to give up his wealth; his heart is not in the right place. He loves the world and he loves his riches more than he loves God. It is entirely poss…
It doesn't say pay your taxes as long as there is no waste. Or the government spends the money wisely. It just says pay.
Doesn't say obey kings/rulers/masters if they treat you well. Or you voted for them. Or you agree with their policies. It just says obey.
All of which is very much the opposite of Evangelical Christianity in the modern USA - much of it is completely corrupted by political power and wealth. It usually only makes people angry or dismissive when you point that out.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
But can't you see what you're doing? You're simply rationalizing everything, repeatedly, until you find a reason to press the button. To the point that you're convincing yourself that in the scenario where you're literally killing people for money, that you're actually saving people. And what you're doing is what humanity naturally does. The people we view as awful in history certainly acknowledged they're doing some…
I’m simply saying that the problem is almost exactly equivalent to the trolley problem. Would you steer the trolley to the track with one man on it? If yes, and you believe you could save more than one person with $1 million, then you would also press the button! > And what you're doing is neither novel nor surprising. This is the exact rationalization most of every person we now view in history as awful also used. T…
Keep in mind that the obvious exceptions like South America = high religiosity + high criminality or Scandiland = low religiosity + low criminality, are group/macro level issues and not individual. Very small numbers of highly sociopathic individuals or groups can have an extreme effect on overall stats. For example the homicide rate for St. Louis is higher than for any country in the world, yet obviously the percent of people of homicidal tendency in St. Louis is negligible. Macro level stats and individual level tendencies are very different things.
[1] - https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/41333/chapter/3523552...
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The tribulation occurs 7 years after 144,000 of the most boring most devout people disappeared forever. Are you sure you would even notice? Especially not for long. Supernatural things won't start occurring again for 7 years, and in a fairly slow drip. Unexplained loud trumpets in the sky? Natural disasters that already occur? This isn't an issue regarding the existence of money and markets. That still functions. May…
I was misled by the marketing. The tribulation seems to be less annoying than most of modern life.
Its far more likely that everyone is practicing the wrong path to salvation. Given how much its been retconned just to be appealing and palatable as the religion grew, most differences between sects are arguments about the retcons, while ancestor versions of the religion are ignored and too unattractive to consider.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
So pagans don't have a religion or morality? That is interesting to hear, as a Hindu. The more things change, the more they remain the same!
I don't know anything about hinduism, but I assume there is a base morality that the strong may not take advantage of the weak, in contrast with the athenian dictum I quoted.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
That story is only tracked back to the 1400's, so not credible. The currently favoured theory is that this was a translation error. Apparently in Aramaic (the language of Judaea and Galilee), the word for "camel" is very close to the word for "rope". As with all parables (and this does qualify as a parable) it may be intended to reward some thought - e.g. the only way of getting a rope through the eye of needle is to…
Is your source on this that 90s era website I’ve seen passed around for 20 years? You truly think that thousands of theologians over hundreds of years never noticed this one simple coincidence?
If by theology, you mean the possible interpretation of "strip away almost everything", while it is debatable whether this particular parable actually means that, it is always accepted that a rich person can give up what they have. This is literally the words of Jesus (Mark 19:16-22), the context in which the parable is given.
Francis of Assisi is an example of one person who made this decision.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
That story is only tracked back to the 1400's, so not credible. The currently favoured theory is that this was a translation error. Apparently in Aramaic (the language of Judaea and Galilee), the word for "camel" is very close to the word for "rope". As with all parables (and this does qualify as a parable) it may be intended to reward some thought - e.g. the only way of getting a rope through the eye of needle is to…
stripping away the rope leaves a thread, and stripping away a man's riches leaves him poor. give it away, in other words.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whether or not something exists has zero to do with whether someone accepts that it does i didn't make such a claim. the existence of god has nothing to do with free will. he either exists, or he doesn't. your or my belief in the existence of god however is governed by the freedom to either believe or reject his existence. if god exists then rejecting him does not make him go away, nor does believing in god make him…
My freedom to believe or reject the existence of god has nothing to do with revelation. People deny what they plainly see and what can be proven to them all the time. You are making an argument that does not exist in any scripture, and is frankly an apologist's argument regarding the failure of Christendom to reach its prophesized conclusion.
well of course, the bible acknowledges that too:
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:20 ESV
that's the point of freedom. if we didn't have the freedom to deny god then we would all be devout believers.
> the failure of Christendom to reach its prophesized conclusion
which conclusion is that? maybe that prophecy has not yet come to pass?
> You are making an argument that does not exist in any scripture
the bible is full of quotes of god or jesus calling the people to believe while leaving them the choice not to: i did not study the bible, so this is just the result of an online search, and the quotes are without context:
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15 ESV
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 ESV
Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed Romans 13:2 ESV
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Revelation 22:17 ESV
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, John 1:12 ESV
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6 ESV
“See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known. Deuteronomy 11:26-28 ESV
the quran is more clear, but again, just a search for quotes without context:
“the Truth [has come] from your Sustainer: let, then, him who wills, believe in it, and let him who wills, reject it.”[Sura Al-Kehf, verse 29.]; [This is] the truth from your Lord: let anyone who wishes believe it, and let anyone who wishes disbelieve it. Whoever please, i.e. with his free will, believe and whoever please disbelieve (18:29)
“Verily, We have shown him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will)”[Sura Al-Mursalat, verse 3]. Indeed We have guided him to the way, be he grateful or ungrateful. (76:3)
“Allah does not change the condition of a people until they bring about a change in their inner-selves (anfus: psyche)”[Sura Ar-Rad, verse 11]. Indeed Allah does not change a people's lot, unless they change what is in their souls. (13:11)
“Allah would never change the blessings with which He has graced a people unless they change their inner-selves”[Sura Al-Anfal, verse 53]
from bahai faith, there are a few people talking about free will, but these are the only direct quotes i found:
There is, unfortunately, no way that one can force his own good upon a man. The element of free will is there, and all we believers -- and even the Manifestation of God Himself -- can do is to offer the truth to mankind. If the people of the world persist, as they seem to be doing, in their blind materialism, they must bear the consequences in a prolongation of their present condition, and even a worsening of it. Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 113
Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord. Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Ahmad
O SON OF MAN! If thou lovest Me, turn away from thyself; and if thou seekest My pleasure, regard not thine own; that thou mayest die in Me and I may eternally live in thee. Baha'u'llah, Hidden Words, Arabic #7