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Deepseek R1-0528

huggingface.co

191–200 of 264 posts

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#191
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a few benchmarks for which that's not the case: - live benchmarks (livebench, livecodebench, matharena, SWE-rebench, etc) - benchmarks that do not have a fixed structure, like games or human feedback benches (balrog, videogamebench, arena) - (to some extent) benchmark without existing/published answers (putnambench, frontiermath). You could argue that someone could hire people to solve those or pay of…

I agree with you. Of course, some benchmarks are still valid and will remain valid. Ie. we can make the models play chess against each other and score them on how well they do. But those benchmarks are in general fairly narrow. They don't really measure the "broader" intelligence we are after. And often, LLMs perform worse than specialized models. Ie. I don't think there is any LLM out there that can beat a tradition…

> But those benchmarks are in general fairly narrow. They don't really measure the "broader" intelligence we are after.

I think a general model that can

- finish nethack, doom, zelda and civilization,

- solve the hardest codeforces/atcoder problems,

- formally prove putnam solution with high probability, not given the answer

- write a PR to close a random issue on github

is likely to have some broader intelligence. I may be mistaken, since there were tasks in the past that appeared to be unsolvable without human-level intelligence, but in fact weren't.

I agree that such benchmarks are limited to either environment with well-defined feedback and rules (games) or easily verifiable ones (code/math), but I wouldn't say it's super narrow, and there are no non-LLM models to perform significantly better on these (except some games); though specialized LLMs work better. Finding other examples, I think, is one of the important problems in AI metrology.

> So, yes, we are kind of left with vibe checks, but in theory, we could do more; take a bunch of models, double-blind, and have a big enough, representative group of human evaluators score them against each other on meaningful subjects.

You've invented an arena (who just raised quite a lot of money). Can argue about "representative," of course. However, I think the SNR in the arena is not too high now; it turns out that the average arena user is quite biased, the most of their queries are trivial for LLMs, and for non-trivial ones, they cannot necessarily figure out which answer is better. MathArena goes in opposite directions: narrow domain, but expert evaluation. You could imagine a bunch of small arenas, each with its own domain experts. I think it may happen eventually if money flow into AI continues.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the training process doesn't seem to be replicable anyway The training process is fully deterministic. It's just an algorithm. Feed the same data in and you'll get the same weights out. If you're speaking about the computational cost, it used to be that way for compilers too. Give it 20 years and you'll be able to train one of today's models on your phone.

What makes models non-deterministic isn't the training algorithm, but the initial weights being random. Training is reproducible only if, besides the pipeline and data, you also start from the same random weights.

So is there no “introduce randomness” at some step afterwards? If not, I would guess these models would be getting stuck in a local maxima

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point at the research that says that the training process of a LLM at least the size of OLMo or Pythia is deterministic?

Can you point to something that says it's not? The only source of non-determinism I've read of affecting LLM training is floating point error which is well understood and worked around easily enough.

Search more, there is a lot of literature discussing how hard the problem of reproducibility of GenAI/LLMs/Deep Learning is, how far we are from solving it for trivial/small models (let alone for beasts the size of the most powerful ones) and even how pointless the whole exercise is.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Not possible” = “a business-destroying level of honesty”?

Even if training on the copyrighted material is OK, just providing a data dump of it almost certainly is not.

No need for a data dump, just list all URLs or whatever else of their training data sources. Afaik that's how the LAION training dataset was published.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to something that says it's not? The only source of non-determinism I've read of affecting LLM training is floating point error which is well understood and worked around easily enough.

Search more, there is a lot of literature discussing how hard the problem of reproducibility of GenAI/LLMs/Deep Learning is, how far we are from solving it for trivial/small models (let alone for beasts the size of the most powerful ones) and even how pointless the whole exercise is.

If there's a lot, then it should be easy for you to link an example right? One that points toward something other than floating point error.

There simply aren't that many sources of non-determinism in a modern computer.

Though I'll grant that if you've engineered your codebase for speed and not for determinism, error can creep in via floating point error, sloppy ordering of operations, etc. These are not unavoidable implementation details, however. CAD kernels and other scientific software do it every day.

When you boil down what's actually happening during training, it's just a bunch of matrix math. And math is highly repeatable. Size of the matrix has nothing to do with it.

I have little doubt that some implementations aren't deterministic, due to software engineering choices as discussed above. But the algorithms absolutely are. Claiming otherwise seems equivalent to claiming that 2 + 2 can sometimes equal 5.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No sign of what source material it was trained on though right? So open weight rather than reproducible from source. I remember there's a project "Open R1" that last I checked was working on gathering their own list of training material, looks active but not sure how far along they've gotten: https://github.com/huggingface/open-r1

> No sign of what source material it was trained on though right? out of curiosity, does anyone do anything "useful" with that knowledge? it's not like people can just randomly train models..

Depending on how you use "randomly", they absolutely can..?

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#197
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No sign of what source material it was trained on though right? So open weight rather than reproducible from source. I remember there's a project "Open R1" that last I checked was working on gathering their own list of training material, looks active but not sure how far along they've gotten: https://github.com/huggingface/open-r1

I don't think people make the distinction like that. The open source vs non open source distinction boils down to, usually, can you use it for commercial use. what you're saying is just that it's non reproducible, which is a completely valid but separate issue

There's already established terms and licenses for non-commercial use. Like "open weights".

Open source has the word "source" in it for a reason, and those models ain't open source and have nothing to do with it.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#198
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slapping an MIT license on a compiled binary doesn't make it open source.

They're keeping some stuff to themselves which is fine. I don't expect anyone to have to fully release everything they've got especially considering the vast costs associated with researching and developing these models. What they have released has been distilled into many new models that others have been using for commercial benefit and I appreciate the contributions that they have made.

> I don't expect anyone to have to fully release everything they've got

I also don't expect Microsoft to release their full Windows 11 source code, but that also means it's not open source. And that's okay, because Microsoft doesn't call it open source.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#199

What use cases are people using local LLMs for? Have you created any practical tools that actually increase your efficiency? I've been experimenting a bit but find it hard to get inspiration for useful applications

I do a lot of data cleaning as part of my job, and I've found that small models could be very useful for that, particularly in the face of somewhat messy data.

You can for instance use them to extract some information such as postal codes from strings, or to translate and standardize country names written in various languages (e.g. Spanish, Italian and French to English), etc.

I'm sure people will have more advanced use cases, but I've found them useful for that.

Re: Deepseek R1-0528

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can fine-tune their weights and release your own take. E.g. see all the specialized third-party models out there based on Qwen. "Open-source" is the wrong word here, what they mean is "you can modify and redistribute these weights".

You can also reverse engineer and modify closed source programs (see mods for games). Weights are like compiled version of source data.

Finetuning isn't reverse engineering. Finetuning is a standard supported workflow for these models.

Also, the "redistribute" part is key here.

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