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US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

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251–260 of 568 posts

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it requires the courts to agree - just that there's a burden or disadvantage and that it's in the "public interest" which seems like a pretty low bar to make up a story that sounds plausible. i think the idea that a trade deficit is a disadvantage is kinda brain dead, but it's plausible sounding enough to argue in court. throw in unequal tariff rates and it seems like an easier win than the IEEPA's emer…

> I don't think it requires the courts to agree Eventually the courts have to agree/disagree if someone starts challenging it up the chain.

Technically they don't. They can say, for example, that the burden placed on commerce is a political question. That would be a declaration that they agree with the government, which looks like agreeing that a burden exists right now, but automatically switches positions whenever the administration does.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#252
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember Obama struggling pretty hard to get Obamacare through congress (and it ended up fairly watered down).

And it started as simply rebranded Romneycare (the 2006 MA state plan), so Rs should have found it palatable. And for the first half of Obama's first term, Ds could vote in anything they wanted but we still got a terrible version of a R health care plan. FWIW, Nixoncare, totally blocked by Ted Kennedy because the dems didn't want Nixon's name on anything else that was nice (the Clean Air Act President kept claiming h…

It's funny how Nixon definitely was a crook, and a loon, and should have gone to prison, and his paranoia and shenanigans set the pattern for and gave license to things to come, up to and including the current crisis... but he's still probably the best postwar Republican president, in terms of good things done or attempted.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#253
post #249
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unequal impositions or discriminations When it comes to china, this is definitely true. The rest of the world not so sure

Huh? American and European CEOs voluntarily move manufacturing to China, now everything gets made in China. And that's somehow China discriminating western countries?

[deleted]

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#254

I wonder if this means businesses can request the courts order the government to repay their unconstitutionally levied duties - especially when it meant it basically destroyed their ability to do business.

Congressional Research Service: The Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA): A Legal Overview - https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45732.pdf - April 17th, 2023 Wikipedia: Sovereign immunity in the United States - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_Unit...

There are exceptions, IIRC you can sue the Internal Revenue Service to return overpayments.

It's less-clear whether the same is true for Customs and Border Patrol.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn’t have to convince the courts of that. The President makes foreign policy, not the courts. As long as the President is plausibly exercising a foreign policy power Congress gave him, the courts don’t get to reweigh the evidence and decide for themselves whether the trade deficits result from other countries placing trade barriers or something else.

Why does the law list specific conditions in which the president can apply the law if the president can apply it for any reason he wants? Surely there's a mechanism through the courts for someone to challenge illegal tariffs on their imports if the president declares "There's a 50% tariff on everything because I woke up in a bad mood today and it's unfair of other countries to be doing that."

> Surely there's a mechanism through the courts for someone to challenge illegal tariffs

What you're describing is the Marbury tail wagging the Article II dog. The focus of the Constitution is allocation of power. The focus isn't creating a system where courts micromanage how the other two branches of government exercise that power. Marbury therefore goes to great lengths to draw lines between an executive's "ministerial" actions, which courts can supervise, and those that involve "discretion," which courts cannot. Marbury thus says:

> [W]here the heads of departments are the political or confidential agents of the Executive, merely to execute the will of the President, or rather to act in cases in which the Executive possesses a constitutional or legal discretion, nothing can be more perfectly clear than that their acts are only politically examinable. But where a specific duty is assigned by law, and individual rights depend upon the performance of that duty, it seems equally clear that the individual who considers himself injured has a right to resort to the laws of his country for a remedy.

The Tariff Act provision here is a classic example of something that Congress has entrusted to the President's discretion. The statute says: "Whenever the President shall find as a fact that any foreign country places any burden or disadvantage upon the commerce of the United States by any of the unequal impositions or discriminations aforesaid..."

Insofar as the courts can properly review such actions, their rule is to determine whether the prerequisites for invoking the authority have been satisfied--namely, did the President make a finding? Here, the President did make a finding. At that point, the courts' jurisdiction gives way to the President's discretion. The courts don't get to decide whether the President's finding is correct, or even whether it makes sense. At that point, the act is "only politically examinable."

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it requires the courts to agree - just that there's a burden or disadvantage and that it's in the "public interest" which seems like a pretty low bar to make up a story that sounds plausible. i think the idea that a trade deficit is a disadvantage is kinda brain dead, but it's plausible sounding enough to argue in court. throw in unequal tariff rates and it seems like an easier win than the IEEPA's emer…

"Aforesaid" is a very specific word that means that the "unequal impositions or discriminations" refers back to specific concepts previously referenced in the law. He can't (legally) just invent his own interpretations for what "unequal impositions" and "discriminations" entails, he has to convince a court that the specific actions he's retaliating against are covered by the "aforesaid" definitions. Here's the comple…

> Trump's tariffs.

Republican tariffs, they're complicit. Literally every single Republican in the House voted to shield Trump's "national emergency" [0] from being challenged as invalid.

[0] The National Emergency of... a relatively small amount of fentanyl seized at the Canadian border.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#257

It will be interesting to hear what Justice Thomas’s supine justification will be for attacking the ruling. The catalyst for the American Revolution was the imposition of taxation (tariffs) without representation. The irony that the party of performative patriotism, with a conservative court, control of the presidency is so spineless that they are afraid to stand and vote for their policy is too afraid to attach thei…

This would fit the standard of taxation with representation. Both Trump and Congress are elected, via a representative democratic process.

The Trade Court disagrees.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

...

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#258

Does it really matter what a court finds, anymore? We don't exactly live in law-abiding times.

Yes, it does. Because it draws a clear line in the sand. The administration can choose to disobey the order, but that opens up individuals in the govt to potential prosecution later. That's why governments try fairly hard to go the legal route or at least maintain a fig leaf of explanations, however implausible.

The supreme court might have declared the president to be immune for official acts, but that doesn't extend to govt officials blatantly choosing contempt of court. They have practical immunity in the current administration. A future administration might not look so kindly on such actions.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#259
post #9

The GOP controls the house and senate. Congress controls tariffs. If they followed the law congress could make the thing happen. But I don't think think independent thinking is allowed in the GOP, and it might force their hand if they had to actually put it to a vote ...

They have a narrow so small that passing tariffs would still be politically difficult even though they control both chambers, and that is not even considering a filibuster. I hope this judgement stands, however, trade actually works out really well for the US economy and its job market. Yes, we don't often manufacture the thing, but we have huge roles in designing those things and packing them with software. Even Chi…

Sounds like there isn’t support for this agenda, and they’re breaking the law to force it on the country. They could moderate their position to something that would pass congress if they cared about the Republic.

Re: US Trade Court finds Trump tariffs illegal

#260

Does it really matter what a court finds, anymore? We don't exactly live in law-abiding times.

Yes, it does. Because it draws a clear line in the sand. The administration can choose to disobey the order, but that opens up individuals in the govt to potential prosecution later. That's why governments try fairly hard to go the legal route or at least maintain a fig leaf of explanations, however implausible. The supreme court might have declared the president to be immune for official acts, but that doesn't exten…

But now we have the “deathbed pardon” or the lame-duck preemptive blanket pardon, popularized by 46.

Break the law all you want, long as the old boss or his successor is happy with you, you can’t be held accountable by the new boss.

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