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Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

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Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#531

Post by gilbetron »

lolinder wrote: post #29
nkrisc wrote: post #13

If the trend continues, it seems like most college degrees will be completely worthless. If students using AI to cheat on homework are graduating with a degree, then it has lost all value as a certificate that the holder has completed some minimum level of education and learning. Institutions that award such degrees will be no different than degree mills of the past. I’m just grateful my college degree has the year 2…

All of the best professors I had either did not grade homework or weighted it very small and often on a did-you-do-it-at-all basis and did not grade attendance at all. They provided lectures and assignments as a means to learn the material and then graded you based on your performance in proctored exams taken either in class or at the university testing center. For most subjects at the university level graded homewor…

> All of the best professors I had either did not grade homework or weighted it very small and often on a did-you-do-it-at-all basis and did not grade attendance at all. They provided lectures and assignments as a means to learn the material and then graded you based on your performance in proctored exams taken either in class or at the university testing center.

I have the opposite experience - the best professors focused on homework and projects and exams were minimal to non-existent. People learn different ways, though, so you might function better having the threat/challenge of an exam, whereas I hated having to put everything together for an hour of stress and anxiety. Exams are artificial and unlike the real world - the point is to solve problems, not to solve problems in weirdly constrained situations.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#532

Post by eternauta3k »

turtletontine wrote: post #125
jamesgill wrote: post #114

The fundamental question that AI raises for me, but nobody seems to answer: In our competitive, profit-driven world--what is the value of a human being and having human experiences? AI is neither inevitable nor necessary--but it seems like the next inevitable step in reducing the value of a human life to its 'outputs'.

I’m similarly worried about businesses all making “rational” decisions to replace their employees with “AI”, wherever they think they can get away with it. (Note that’s not the same thing as wherever “AI” can do the job well!) But I think one place where this hits a wall is liability and accountability. Lots of low stakes things will be enshittified by “AI” replacements for actual human work. But for things like airl…

No, we already have autonomous cars driving around even though they've already killed people.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#533

Post by gilbetron »

rixed wrote: post #215

AI for classical education can be an issue, but AI for inverted classes is perfect. Going to school to listen to a teacher for hours and take notes, sitting in a group of peers to whom you are not allowed to speak, and then going home to do some homework on your own, this whole concept is stupid and deserves to die. Learning lessons is the activity you should do within the confort of your home, with the help of every…

AI is bad for academia and the educational industrial complex, but it is great for people that actually want to learn.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#534

Post by [deleted] »

snickerbockers wrote: post #460
aerhardt wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the 10% who really want to learn should give up and embrace the degree mill merry-go-round game? I’m as cynical as they come, but even that’s a bit too much for me.

i was actually trying to accuse the 10% of lying to themselves on a subconscious level, because the portion of undergraduates who actually came there to learn and not just because it's a roadblock in the way of gainful employment is a rounding error. More to the point, the universities need to realize they're more like job certification centers and stop pretending their students aren't just there to take tests and ge…

[deleted]

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#535

Post by tgv »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #486
tgv wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that AI can do your homework should tell you how much you still have to learn. The goal of learning is not to do a job. It's to enrich you, broaden your mind, and it takes work on your part. In similar reasoning, you could argue that you can take a car to go anywhere, or let everything be delivered on your doorstep, so why should I my child learn to walk?

Let me rephrase their point, then: The fact that AI can replace the work that you are measured on should tell you something about the measurement itself. The goal of learning should be to enrich the learner. Instead, the goal of learning is to pass measure. Success has been quietly replaced with victory. Now LLMs are here to call that bluff.

And learning does do that. It is an economic compromise, though. Most of us have average (or worse) teachers. I have the feeling that that's what your arguing against, not learning per se.

> LLMs are here to call that bluff

Students have been copying from e.g. encyclopedias for as long as anyone can remember. That doesn't mean that an encyclopedia removes the need to learn. Even rote memorization has its use. But it's difficult to make school click for everybody.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#536

Post by CalRobert »

sshine wrote: post #69

I teach computer science / programming, and I don't know what a good AI policy is. On the one hand, I use AI extensively for my own learning, and it's helping me a lot. On the other hand, it gets work done quickly and poorly. Students mistake mandatory assignments for something they have to overcome as effortlessly as possible. Once they're past this hurdle, they can mind their own business again. To them, AI is not…

Do you find that thinking of your students as dum-dums makes you a better teacher?

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#537

Post by 542354234235 »

crystal_revenge wrote: post #209
JoshTriplett wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life doesn't tend to take place under exam conditions, either.

I believe parent is making a more general point, and as someone who would also be considered "neurodivergent" I would agree with that point. There were plenty of times growing up where special consideration would have been a huge help for me, but I'm deeply grateful that I learned in a world where "sometimes life is unfair" was considered a valuable lesson. In my adult life I had a coworker who constantly demanded th…

On the other hand, I look at it in a more “a rising tide raises all boats” situation. Learning how to accommodate people who fall outside the norm not only helps them, but helps everyone, much like the famous sidewalk “curb cuts” for wheelchairs ended up helping everyone with luggage, strollers, bikes, etc.

We as a society have a lot of proxies for evaluating real world value. Testing is a proxy for school knowledge. Interviews are a proxy for job performance. Trying to understand and decouple actual value from the specific proxies we default to can unlock additional value. You said yourself that you do have strengths, so if there are ways society can maximize those and minimize proxies you aren’t strong in, that is a win win.

Your coworker sounds like they have an issue with laziness and entitlement more than an issue with neurodivergence. Anyone can be lazy and entitled. Even if someone has a weakness with quick turn production but excels in more complex or abstract long-term projects could be a value added for a company. Shifting workloads so that employees do more tasks they are suited towards, rather than a more ridged system, could end up helping all employees maximize productivity by reducing cognitive load they were wasting on tasks they were not as suited for, but did just because that was the way it was always done and they never struggled enough for it to become an actual “issue”.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#538

Post by stonemetal12 »

Balgair wrote: post #455
math_dandy wrote: post #28

I teach math at a large university (30,000 students) and have also gone “back to the earth”, to pen-and-paper, proctored and exams. Students don’t seem to mind this reversion. The administration, however, doesn’t like this trend. They want all evaluation to be remote-friendly, so that the same course with the same evaluations can be given to students learning in person or enrolled online. Online enrollment is a huge…

I think you've identified the main issue here: LLMs aren't destroying the University or the essay. LLMs are destroying the cheap University or essay. Cheap can mean a lot of things, like money or time or distance. But, if Universities want to maintain a standard, then they are going to have to work for it again. No more 300+ person freshman lectures (where everyone cheated anyways). No more take-home zoom exams. No m…

>I guess, I'm advocating for the Oxbridge/St. John's approach with under 10 class sizes where the proctor actually knows you and if you've done the work. And I know, that is not a cheap way to churn out degrees.

I could understand US tuition if that were the case. These days with overworked adjuncts make it McDonalds at Michelin star prices.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#539

Post by xsmasher »

mcherm wrote: post #332
throwaway2037 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say from some working experience in the United States that way too many jobs require a university degree. I remember being an intern or my first job after uni (which I struggled a great deal to complete), looking around and thinking: "There is no way that all of these people need a uni degree to do their jobs." I couldn't believe how easy work was compared to my uni studies (it was hell). I felt like I was play…

You seem to be missing the first step: get hired for the job in the first place.

This is why you need the degree. HR has a stack of resumes a mile high, if they can throw out all the non-degrees to narrow the field then their job is easier.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#540

Post by RHSeeger »

armchairhacker wrote: post #423
RHSeeger wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it also only catches cheating on exams. For homework/projects, you can't really have that be in person.

My take: - Make “homework” ungraded. Many college classes already do this, and it has been easy to cheat on it way before AI by sharing solutions. Knowledge is better measured in exams and competence in projects. My understanding is that homework is essentially just practice for exams, and it’s only graded so students don’t skip it then fail the exams; but presumably now students cheat on it then fail exams, and for…

> My understanding is that homework is essentially just practice for exams

There are a LOT of people that don't take exams well. When you combine that with the fact that the real world doesn't work like exams in 90% of cases, it makes a lot of sense for grades to _not_ based on exams (as much as possible). Going the other direction (based on nothing _but_ exams) is going to be very painful to a lot of people; people that do learn the material but don't test well.

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