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A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

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Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#291
post #37
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not even in the same zip code as the point I'm trying to make, which, I guess, sort of makes my point. Nobody says you have to write iOS games using the same methodology as avionics, what somebody is trying to say is that random walk will only get you so far... iOS is a pretty bad example btw, because iOS is very much a Cathedral and has a designer and architect who cares and who is in control. That's precise…

> That's precisely why don't need to use autoconf to compile stuff for iOS. You don't need it to compile stuff for one specific version of Debian with packages X, Y and Z installed, either. You're comparing apples to oranges.

But Debian v.x.y.z isn't a target; "Linux" is.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's referring to the OS X users that started out with the iPhone, iPod or the iPad as their first Apple device and then bought a Mac. (Not that I agree with the argument).

I know, but if he's speaking to expectations, the brand of computer isn't relevant.

I don't think this follows.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#293
post #268
post #2

Autoconf is an easy target for these kind of rants, but you know what? It does its job, and it does it very well. The ratio of autoconf to non-autoconf programs on my system is probably 10:1, but the ratio of build problems is something like 1:20. If anyone ever managed to write a genuinely better build system, the bazaar would let it rise to the top; the gradual rise of e.g. cmake is testament to this. Trying to imp…

> The ratio of autoconf to non-autoconf programs on my system is probably 10:1, but the ratio of build problems is something like 1:20. I guess you're running Linux, right? I'd be VERY interested to see this ratio if you ran Solaris.

FreeBSD for what it's worth

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#294
Here's an optimistic thought: one great company can change things. Google's engineering-driven culture did that. And Apple has made people care about design, albeit only the surface-aesthetic sense of "design", which is what they identify with Apple despite Jobs' dictum "design is how it works". Well, suppose a new company came along that succeeded massively by means of good software design. A lot of things would turn on their head. People would have to stop saying "that's not feasible" or "things are too complicated" or "market forces demand otherwise", just as Apple's success has caused them – against all odds! – to have to stop saying those things about elegance and beauty.

Such a company could have a profound effect because many of the best and/or most aptitudinous (sorry) programmers would be inspired by it. Right now we have no great example to point to, just a bunch of intuitions and (by now) raggedy traditions that we barely understand, which is what I take to be the point of the OP. But great design feeds the soul in a way that the steaming landfills many of us spend our days adding code to never can. So there's a fair amount of talent out there waiting to be kindled. One bolt of lightning and who knows.

Yeah it hasn't happened yet, but it's easy to imagine how it could. Historical accident plays a role in such things.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FreeBSD grinds on one until it definitively works. And what happens if it never works?

An example: libkse was an attempt to implement M:N thread scheduling. This is something that can, in theory, provide significant benefits over 1:1 thread scheduling, but in practice, is extremely complicated to implement and has fallen out of favor across the board: Solaris abandoned the approach in Solaris 9, and FreeBSD abandoned it in (IIRC) FreeBSD 7. Concurrent to libkse, libthr was developed by David Xu, and wa…

Thank you for actually dignifying my reply with a reply :)

While it's been years since I mucked about in Linux kernel space, I always remember it as being a very open and egalitarian community. Although I never made the attempt to contribute to any of the BSDs, I got the impression that they were much less open to newer contributors and divergences from "accepted wisdom" (this could be put more politely as being more discriminating (as in taste) and careful). That being said, the majority of decisions I was witness to on LKML appeared to be well-considered, and make no mistake that patches and design ideas were not just accepted willy-nilly. While Linux has stumbled across many missteps, I still personally prefer the wild possibilities and endless choices that eventually shake out a solution, at the same time keeping with a distribution (Debian stable) that filters out the issues for the end users (myself included).

I also find very interesting the parallels between this discussion and the "worse is better" essay, where UNIX was supposed to be in the "worse" camp, and now it's Linux.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why you think that? I suspect it might be related to the focus on "consumer-centric" (as opposed to geek-centric) features. That is one interesting side-effect of the bazaar model: it's great at building what the majority want. If you are trying to build something that nobody is asking for, you can't beat the cathedral model! ;-) I will tell you, though, that Snow Leopard missed its ship date by 8 months (of…

I can't speak for the gp, but I certainly would still be on Snow Leopard if development for the current version of iOS was still supported on it. I'm now seriously considering switching back to Linux as a desktop OS as I hardly do any iOS work anymore. (I've rather fallen out of love with that platform too as it's pretty clear that the only objective is selling me a new iPad+iPhone every year as this year's iOS alway…

As someone who's been on OSX since Panther, I think you may have a slightly rose-tinted view of the past - lots of stuff in OSX has been improved - I remember pretty horrible kernel panics in 10.4 and userland issues in 10.5 that no longer exist since 10.6/10.7 (or have yet to show themselves). Driver support from vendors is vastly improved, and overall, though I agree that quality has been a bit hit-or-miss, the overall usability is improved, IMHO.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#297
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention the fact that the bazaar is never going to put a man on the moon. I think we can see abundant proof evolution can go a long way towards that specific goal. The reason your work machine, running BSD, works the way it does (and self-assembles that way) is because each part of its software environment is independent, designed for different goals and constraints and it just happens to work together well…

>The reason your work machine, running BSD, works the way it does (and self-assembles that way) is because each part of its software environment is independent, designed for different goals and constraints and it just happens to work together well enough you can work with it No, that's not the case at all actually. FreeBSD like the other BSDs is a complete OS, designed and built as a complete OS. It is not a collecti…

  arcueid ~ $ du -hs /usr/src
  728M    /usr/src
  arcueid ~ $ du -hs /usr/src/contrib/
  307M    /usr/src/contrib/
So actually almost half of the FreeBSD OS is "random tools by various people thrown together".

Compared to that, in something like Debian the GNU tools, designed and built by the GNU with the intention to form a complete OS, probably constitute a greater proportion of the core OS.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#298
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think turning a cathedral into a bazaar is a minor architectural change?

You'd be surprised at how well a bazaar fits _inside_ a cathedral :)

To be completely sincere, I've hidden a bazaar inside a cathedral a couple times myself.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, but I would like to come in on that first comment. I think I understand the point you are making (if you grew up in a time of cathedrals you will rate them highly) but it can be taken as an ad hominem attack - one I am sure you did not intend, and would be beneath the HN quality level (its a Cathedral to debate round here)

Not intended as an ad hominem as much as a reductio ad absurdum . It is frequently true that the views held by those older are also more likely to be correct, but it is not guaranteed. This is especially true when the views relate to social norms, views on which few people change as they get older. Cathedral vs Bazaar is probably as close to an argument of social norms as the software world gets...

It is frequently true that the views held by those older are also more likely to be correct, but it is not guaranteed.

I think that one of the best lessons to take away from this whole flame fest is that history is something to learn from, and not just blindly revere. But first, that requires knowing about history, which far too many people don't. The whole issue of whether cathedrals or bazaars produce better software is orthogonal, and needs to be addressed to different situations.

First, are there still places where cathedral style development is a very good idea, hinging on being necessary? Yes, but it has to be done right, and unfortunately, cathedrals aren't (usually) very flexible. The Mars rovers were all cathedral programmed and work pretty darn well; on the other end of the spectrum you can find all sorts of big projects that went awry, even with "coherent design".

Second, is cathedral design necessary for all software today? No. I'm fortunate enough to have the perspective of a second generation programmer; my father started in middle school by sending punch cards to the university and would get his results a week later. Careful planning was not just a good idea then; it was absolutely necessary. These days he has a computer with more power and connectivity in his pocket than was available when he was born. His turnaround time for seeing results on software changes these days is well under five minutes.

So the computing industry has come so far so fast that it's not just unnecessary to make grandiose plans in advance, it may actually be a bad idea in a number of cases (what was it Paul Graham said? "If you want a recipe for a startup that's going to die, here it is: a couple of founders who have some great idea they know everyone is going to love, and that's what they're going to build, no matter what.").

It's kind of nice that anyone can just pick up a computer and start writing software these days. Sure, sometimes it's scary too, to think of all the inefficiencies, and wrong results and security holes that plague software. But it's so nice and liberating to think: "you know what? I can do it better, I have the freedom to try to make something better." And you can develop all cathedral style if you want!

Could software be improved? Definitely! Should people learn from history? Yes, including the mistakes. Would more design and coherent vision help make better software? Maybe; go ahead and prove it (a quick note: unfortunately, the market doesn't select the best software or designs, so you will have to prove it some other way, but being successful market wise is a good start).

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, but I would like to come in on that first comment. I think I understand the point you are making (if you grew up in a time of cathedrals you will rate them highly) but it can be taken as an ad hominem attack - one I am sure you did not intend, and would be beneath the HN quality level (its a Cathedral to debate round here)

Not intended as an ad hominem as much as a reductio ad absurdum . It is frequently true that the views held by those older are also more likely to be correct, but it is not guaranteed. This is especially true when the views relate to social norms, views on which few people change as they get older. Cathedral vs Bazaar is probably as close to an argument of social norms as the software world gets...

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