Earlier quoted context omitted.
The pandemic is ongoing.
For anyone downvoting this: look into how many people are currently infected. Compare that to early 2020. Yes, the people who were prone to dying already did so years ago. But the rate of long term disability in every single country is skyrocketing. The average person has had 4.7 covid infections by now. Now look into the literal thousands of studies of long term effects of that. Future generations will never forgive…
At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
751–760 of 897 posts
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#752Earlier quoted context omitted.
100% this. I did this many times too. Often I wouldn’t bother with cleanup or refactor before, but now it’s way easier, faster and cheaper to do it. And it’s better in the long run.
Any actual evidence of it being better? Because publicly available evidence points to the contrary, where it repeatedly fails to complete the most basic of tasks. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44050152
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#753Earlier quoted context omitted.
Before I started using advanced IDEs that could navigate project structures very quickly, it was normal to have a relatively poor visibility -- call it "fog of war/code". In a 500,000 line C++ project (I have seen a few in my career), as a junior dev, I might only understand a few thousand lines from a few files I have studied. And, I had very little idea of the overall architecture. I see LLMs here as a big opportun…
What do you think about software such as source insight that gives developers an eagle eye of view of the project?
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#754Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not solved, I had tried it across the latest versions of several different AIs before I posted, because I anticipated a reply like yours. > Just because they struggle with that makes all the other things wrong? No, it makes their grandiose claims very tenuous. But for me, yes I'm very underwhelmed by what AI is capable of. I think it's a useful tool, like a search box, but that's it at this point. That they are…
I tried it too and I know this test for a while. Not only did Claude respond correctly, I also wrote it in German. And I often switch between English and German for single words just because ai is already that good. This wasn't even imaginable a few years back. We had 0 technology for that. I created single page html Javascript pages for small prototypes withhin 10 minutes with very little repromting. I can literally…
You're missing the point though. If it worked for you when you tried it, that's great, but we know these tools are stochastic, so that's not enough to call it "solved". That I tried it and it didn't work tells me it's not. And that's actually worse than it not working at all, because it leads to the false confidence you are expressing.
The strawberry example highlights like all abstractions, AI is a leaky one. It's not the oracle they're selling it as, it's just another interface you have to know the internal details of to properly use it beyond the basics. Which means that ultimately the only people who are really going to be able to wield AI are those who understand what I mean when I say "leaky abstraction". And those people can already program anyway, so what are we even solving by going full natural language?
> I created single page html Javascript pages for small prototypes withhin 10 minutes with very little repromting.
You can achieve similar results with better language design and tooling. Really this is more of an indictment of Javascript as a language. Why couldn't you write the small prototype in 10 minutes in Javascript?
> I can literally generate an image of whatever I want with just text or voice.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy doing this all the time. But AI images are kind of a different breed because art doesn't ever have to be "right". But still, just like generative text, AI images are impressive only to a point where details start to matter. Like hands. Or character consistency. Multiple characters in a scene. This is still a problem in latest models of AI not doing what you tell it to do.
> I can have a discussion with my smartphone with voice.
Yes, talking to your phone is a neat trick, but is it a discussion? Interacting with AI often feels more like an improv session, where it just makes things up and rolls with vibes. Every time (and yes I mean every) I ask it about topics I'm an expert about, it gets things wrong. Often subtly, but importantly still wrong. It feels like less of a discussion and more like I'm being slowly gaslight. This is not impressive, it's frustrating.
I think you get my point. Yes, AI can be impressive at first, but when you start using it more and more you start to see all the cracks. And it would be fine if those cracks were being patched, or even if they just acknowledged them and the limitations of LLMs. But they won't do that; instead what they are doing is pretending they don't exist, pretending these LLMs are actually good, and pushing AI into literally everything and anything. They've been promising exponential improvements for years now, and still the same problems from day 1 persist.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#755Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's wrong with writing tests? I sleep well at night when we push to production because of our robust test suite.
Writing good tests is an art. Its hard. It takes a deep understanding of _how_ the system is implemented, what should be tested and what should be left alone. Coverage results don't mean much. Takes some experience to know how easy it is to introduce a major bug with 100% test coverage. Tests are supposed to tell you if a piece of code works as it should. But I have found no good way of judging how well a test suite…
However, usually no one really cares about testing at all. Also many projects are internal, not critical, etc.
Make fast, break things, deliver crappy software.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#756Not directly related, but an anecdote: well before AI, I was talking to a Portfolio Solutions Manager or something from JP Morgan. He was an MD at the firm and very full of himself. He told me, "You guys, your job is....you just Google search your problem and copy paste a solution, right?". What I found hilarious is that he also told me, "The quants, I hate that they keep their C++ code secret. I opened up the execut…
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#757Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#758Earlier quoted context omitted.
> there's another 50% who won't really get much done otherwise, either because they don't know what to do and aren't self-motivated or capable enough to figure it out (common) or because they're actively cheating you and barely working (less common) Idk I barely ever work with people who are like this, and if people become like this, it's usually obvious to everyone that it's happened and they get a talking to in the…
I assume you are in a country with fire-at-will policies. In Germany you have a job security, you can't just fire people without a reason. The difficulty is actually proving their incompetence or unwillingness to work. Thus in my experience (working a self-employed contractor in Germany) this group is far larger than 50%. Also one of my reasons why no good software comes out of germany (and this includes SAP, as long…
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#759Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of it is perception. Writing software was long considered somewhat difficult and that it required smart people to do so. AI changes this perception and coding starts to be perceived as a low level task that anyone can do easily with augmentation from AI tools. I certainly agree that writing software is turning more into a factory job and is less intellectually rewarding now.
It has been a factory job for decades. Not everyone gets to code the next ground breaking algorithm at some R&D department. Most programming tasks are rather repetitive, and in many countries there is hardly anything to look up to software developers, it is another blue collar job. And in many cultures if you don't go into management after about five years, usually it is seen as a failure to grow up on their career.
The mindset, mentality, and culture required to do new software for an ambiguous problem is different from the mentality to produce boilerplate code or maintain an existing codebase. The later is pure execution and the former is more like R&D.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#760Earlier quoted context omitted.
My own tangential gripe (a bit related to yours though): the factory work began when Agile crept into the workplace. Additionally, lint, unit tests, code reviews... all this crap just piled on making programming worse still. It stopped being fun to code around that point. Too many i's to dot to make management happy.
What's wrong with writing tests? I sleep well at night when we push to production because of our robust test suite.
It's really frustrating; I'm all for some bit of code not needing a test, but it should be because the code doesn't need to be unit tested. Breaking unit testing, not knowing how to fix it, and removing all testing is not a good reason.