To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…
At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
711–720 of 897 posts
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#712It amazes me how immature our field can be. Anyone that worked for big corporations and in humongous codebases know how 'generating new code' is a small part of the job. AI blew up and suddenly I'm seeing seasoned people talking about KLOC like in the 90s.
> 'generating new code' is a small part of the job I think this attitude has been taken too far to the point that people (especially senior+ engineers) end up spending massive amounts of time debating and aligning things that can just be done in far less time (especially with AI, but even without it). And these big companies need to change that if they want to get their productivity back. From the article: > One engi…
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#713> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…
And except that the factory analogy of software delivery has always been utterly terrible. If you want to draw parallels between software delivery and automotive delivery then most of what software engineers do would fall into the design and development phases. The bit that doesn’t: the manufacturing phase - I.e., creating lots of copies of the car - is most closely modelled by deployment, or distribution of delivera…
This is not true from a manager's perspective (indoctrinated by Taylorism). From a manager's perspective, development is manufacturing, and underlying business process is the blueprint.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#714> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#715Earlier quoted context omitted.
You don't work in a job with real QC. Do some pharma work and then get back to me.
Your comment is adversarial for no reason. "Real" QC? I work for people who make vehicles on the ground and in the air that hold passengers expecting to be delivered safely. Some of them even make parts for very large structures that are expected to remain standing when the wind blows too hard or the ground shakes too much. Let's talk about "real" QC and these other imagined types that must exist to you. Can you defi…
Your > * Any manufacturer will do everything in their power to avoid meeting anything but the barest minimums of standards due to budget concerns*
set the adversarial bar, and OP was just countering in kind.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#716Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's wrong with writing tests? I sleep well at night when we push to production because of our robust test suite.
From my perspective it's not "tests" but this reaction. There's nothing wrong with tests, but there certainly is a cost to them, are you getting a positive ROI? Has the system been perverted to focus on tests vs. tests supporting quality? Are tests used to justify all sorts of unrelated actions or inaction? Now repeat this exercise with 100 or 1000 other perfectly valid concepts that can help destroy the the very thi…
In a decade and a half, we had very few issues, all easy to handle, and ie app has its own clustering via Hazelcast so its pretty robust with minimal resources. Simply nothing business could point a finger to and complain about. Since it was mostly just me, a pretty low cost solution that could be bent to literally any requirement pretty quickly.
Come 2025, now its part of agile team and efforts, all runs on openshift which adds nothing good but a lot of limitations, we waste maybe 0.5-1md each week just on various agile meetings which add 0 velocity or efficiency, in fact we are much slower (not only due to agile, technology landacape became more and more hostile to literally any change, friction for anything is maasive compared to a decade ago and there is nothing I can do with that).
I understand being risk averse against new unknown stuff, but something that proved its worth over 15 years?
Well it aint my money being spend needlessly, I dont care and find life fulfillment completely outside of work (the only healthy approach for devs in places like banking megacorps). But smart or effective it ain't.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#717Earlier quoted context omitted.
My own tangential gripe (a bit related to yours though): the factory work began when Agile crept into the workplace. Additionally, lint, unit tests, code reviews... all this crap just piled on making programming worse still. It stopped being fun to code around that point. Too many i's to dot to make management happy.
Agile yes, it's micromanagement at scale. But writing tests and doing code reviews is good practice.
I usually give up, stop arguing why it is actually better than the way the gatekeepers suggest and redo my code, less time wasted.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#718Earlier quoted context omitted.
The whole auto factory thing sounds completely misinformed to me. Just because a machine made it does not mean the output isn't checked in a multitude of ways. Any manufacturing process is subject to quality controls. Machines are maintained. Machine parts are swapped out long before they lead to out-of-tolerance work. Process outputs are statistically characterised, measured and monitored. Measurement equipment is r…
> Any manufacturing process is subject to quality controls. A few things on this illusion: * Any manufacturer will do everything in their power to avoid meeting anything but the barest minimums of standards due to budget concerns * QA workers are often pressured to let small things fly and cave easily because they simply do not get paid enough to care and know they won't win that fight unless their employer's product…
Perhaps this is industry dependent?
In my country’s automotive industry, quality control standards have risen a lot in the past few decades. These days consumers expect the doors and sunroof not to leak, no rust even after 15 years being kept outdoors, and the engine to start first time even after two weeks in an airport carpark.
How is this achieved? Lots of careful quality checking.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#719An example from today: I have some scientific calculations that run in a Django app. One specific endpoint has a function that takes 2-3 minutes to execute. When I was hitting the endpoint I was getting a timeout error. I asked Claude to fix it, and it came up with a huge change in the front end (polling) and backend (celery) to support asynchronous operations. I instead increased the nginx timeout from 1 minute to 5…
Sounds like Claude is doing the right thing, at least for the general problem. You are just waiting for this to deteriorate, and at some point that 5min timeout is not long enough, and you'll have to come up with something else again. And more generally, there are multiple issues with properly handling long running actions -- you want a good UX for these actions in your app, they may need to be queued or be allowed t…
No not really. The engineer’s job is work within the constraints first and when a big change is really warranted, pursue it.
It’s having a structural issue that can be fixed with a reinforcement, and an automated system suggests to demolish and rebuild part of the most structure altogether. It’s not that clear cut. You maybe right but I wouldn’t jump into conclusions like this.
Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work
#720Earlier quoted context omitted.
For any given seed value, the output of an LLM will be identical- it is deterministic. You can try this at home with Llama.cpp by specifying a seed value when you load a LLM, and then seeing that for a given input the output will always be the same. Of course there may be some exceptions (cosmic ray bit flips). Also, if you are only using online models, you can't set the seed value, plus there are multiple models, so…
> the process an LLM uses to generate code based on an input is definitely not entirely deterministic Technically correct is the least useful kind of correct when it's wrong in practice. And in practice the process AI coding tools use to generate code is not deterministic which is what matters. To make matters worse in the comparison with a manufacturing robot, even the input is never the same. While a robot get the…