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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

nytimes.com

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#641

Post by raincole »

codr7 wrote: post #204
torben-friis wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: AI has help me refactor things where I normally couldn’t. Things like extracting some common structure that’s present in a slightly different way in 30 places, where cursor detects it, or suggesting potential for a certain pattern. The problem with vibe coding is more behavioral I think: the person more likely to jump in the bandwagon to avoid writing some code themselves is probably not the one thinkin…

And once AI is not there anymore, you're back on square one. It only looks effective if you remove learning from the equation. It's the wrong tool for the job, that's what it is.

> And once AI is not there anymore

Do you expect an incoming collapse of modern society?

That's the only case where LLM would be "not there anymore." Even if this current hype train dies completely, there will still businesses providing LLM interference, just far less new models. Thinking LLM would be "not there anymore" is even more delusional than thinking programmer as a job would cease to exist due to LLM.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#642

Post by guax »

jmyeet wrote: post #343
OptionOfT wrote: post #171

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

You're not wrong that AI is hyped just like crypto and VR were. But it's also true that automation will increasingly impact your job, even for jobs that we have considered to be highly technical like software engineering. I've noticed this over the last decade where tech people (of which I am one) have considered themselves above the problems of ordinary workers such as just affording to live. I really started to not…

Whoosh noises, flashback bells...

In the future no one will have to code. Well compile the business case from UML diagrams!

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#643

Post by danparsonson »

nojito wrote: post #627
close04 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misconstrue the analogy. The robot isn’t equivalent to the code in this analogy. It’s the thing that generates the code. The robot operates deterministically, it has a fixed input and a fixed output. This is what makes it reliable. Your “AI coder” is nothing like that. It’s non deterministic on its best day, and it gets everything thrown at it so even more of a coin toss. This seriously undermines any expectation…

Except the code it creates is deterministic.

LLMs almost always operate at least partly stochastically.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#645

Post by a1j9o94 »

bckr wrote: post #614
HenryBemis wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that, (the way I see it happening more and more in the real world): - tests are ran by machines - linters are (being) replaced by machines/SaaS services (so.. machines) - formal verification: yes - SHure, 5 people will review the thousands lines of code written every day, in a variety of languages/systems/stacks/scripts/RPAs/etc. or they will simply check that the machines return "green-a-OK" and ask the…

> Devs are cost center, not a profit center. They are "value enablers" not "value adders". I don’t understand this and I think it would require breaking my brain in order to. A person pays the company to provide a service. The developers create and maintain (part of) that service.

The point is devs aren't sales/client facing. So from the customers perspective, it's just a delivery detail.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#646

Post by lifeisstillgood »

agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

>It would be crazy if in an auto factory people were measuring to make sure every angle is correct

They need to read “the code is the design”. When you are cutting the door for the thousandth car, you are past design and into building.

For us building is automatic - take code turn into binary.

The reason we measure the door is we are at the design stage abs you need to make sure everything fits.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#647

Post by wg0 »

major505 wrote: post #630
OptionOfT wrote: post #171

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

In 20 yeas in this market I saw a lot of this. A about 6 years back it was the blockchain crazy. My boss wanted me to put blockchain in everything (so he could market this to our clients). I printed a small sign and left on my desk. Everytime someone asked me about blockchain, I would point the sign "We don't need blockchain!"

This is professionalism. Appeasement is dishonest.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#648

Post by jcims »

RossBencina wrote: post #574
agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

The whole auto factory thing sounds completely misinformed to me. Just because a machine made it does not mean the output isn't checked in a multitude of ways. Any manufacturing process is subject to quality controls. Machines are maintained. Machine parts are swapped out long before they lead to out-of-tolerance work. Process outputs are statistically characterised, measured and monitored. Measurement equipment is r…

A buddy of mine was a director in a metrology integration firm that did nothing but install lidar, structured light and other optical measurement solutions for auto assembly plants. He had a couple dozen people working full time on new model line build outs (every new model requires substantial refurb and redesign to the assembly line) and ongoing QA of vehicles as they were being manufactured at two local Honda plants. The precision they were looking for is pretty remarkable.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#649

Post by goodpoint »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #557
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's another 50% who won't really get much done otherwise, either because they don't know what to do and aren't self-motivated or capable enough to figure it out (common) or because they're actively cheating you and barely working (less common) Idk I barely ever work with people who are like this, and if people become like this, it's usually obvious to everyone that it's happened and they get a talking to in the…

I assume you are in a country with fire-at-will policies. In Germany you have a job security, you can't just fire people without a reason. The difficulty is actually proving their incompetence or unwillingness to work. Thus in my experience (working a self-employed contractor in Germany) this group is far larger than 50%. Also one of my reasons why no good software comes out of germany (and this includes SAP, as long…

The ability to deliver a 30 second summary in a daily standup has very little to do with real productivity.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#650

Post by kriro »

agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

Car factory is a funny example because that's also one of the least likely places you will see AI assisted coding. Safety critical domains are a whole different animal with SysML everywhere and thousand page requirements docs.
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