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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

nytimes.com

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#401

Post by pchristensen »

bgwalter wrote: post #373
agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

Amazing. What has Harper Reed written? Does he have any significant output? This is frankly the most idiotic statement I have heard about programming yet.

This made the rounds recently: https://harper.blog/2025/02/16/my-llm-codegen-workflow-atm/

That quote really misrepresents his writing.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#402

Post by baxtr »

agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

His comment is a reflection of the future Software operating model they’ll have.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#403

Post by shakna »

bartread wrote: post #393
agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

And except that the factory analogy of software delivery has always been utterly terrible. If you want to draw parallels between software delivery and automotive delivery then most of what software engineers do would fall into the design and development phases. The bit that doesn’t: the manufacturing phase - I.e., creating lots of copies of the car - is most closely modelled by deployment, or distribution of delivera…

> You don’t think engineers and designers follow a standardised process when they develop a new car?

Apparently the Cybertruck did not. And that sort of speaks for itself.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#404

Post by lightedman »

intended wrote: post #387
agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

The fact that they used the auto industry as an example is funny, because the Toyota way and six sigma came out of that industry. So you are telling me, your AI code passes a six sigma grade of quality control? I have a bridge to sell you. No, Bridges!

"The fact that they used the auto industry as an example is funny, because the Toyota way and six sigma came out of that industry."

It's even funnier when you consider that Toyota has learned how bad of an idea lean manufacturing/6-Sig/5S can be thanks to the pandemic - they're moving away from it in some degrees, now.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#405

Post by zeroonetwothree »

timr wrote: post #11
jt2190 wrote: post #4

This is interesting: > “It’s more fun to write code than to read code,” said Simon Willison, an A.I. fan who is a longtime programmer and blogger, channeling the objections of other programmers. “If you’re told you have to do a code review, it’s never a fun part of the job. When you’re working with these tools, it’s most of the job.” > This shift from writing to reading code can make engineers feel as if they are bys…

I was just thinking about this the other day (after spending an extended session talking to an LLM about bugs in its code), and I realized that when I was just starting out, I enjoyed writing code, but now the fun part is actually fixing bugs. Maybe I'm weird, but chasing down bugs is like solving a puzzle. Writing green-field code is maybe a little bit enjoyable, but especially in areas I know well, it's mostly bori…

I find both fun. Writing a web form is still kinda fun even after 20 years. I guess it’s like how some people still play the same video games after years and years while others want something new.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#406

Post by pchristensen »

agarren wrote: post #351

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

Harper talks a lot about using defensive coding (tests, linters, formal verification, etc) so that its not strictly required to craft and understand everything.

This article (and several that follow) explain his ideas better than this out of context quote.

https://harper.blog/2025/02/16/my-llm-codegen-workflow-atm/

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#407

Post by ipaddr »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #344
ath3nd wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the wealth of the average software developer ($122 000/y) in the US closer to the wealth of: A) a coal miner with $60 000/y salary B) Elon Musk: $381 000 000 000 Sources: - https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/coal-miner-salary-SRCH_KO... - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-rich-6-8-170106956.... Is the average amount of properties (1-2) owned by a so…

Let me ask you this, do software engineers in unions enjoy more benefits and compensation than those not in Unions?

They enjoy more benefits and compensation than if they were not in a union. Most importantly more protections.

Comparing those in unions who are more likely to be in the video game making or industry or government to faangs like Amazon where you work day and night for a 4 year vesting offer that pays out very little until the 4th year and where on average most worker work less than 2 years at Amazon.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#408

Post by zeroonetwothree »

almostgotcaught wrote: post #270
pessimizer wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're channeling Marx (literally saying the same stuff he was) Marx is the originator of precisely none of those thoughts, you couldn't find an economist that disagrees with them. "Unions" is also not the obvious solution for the problems of an individual. Unless you have a specific, existing union with a contact phone number that you're referring to, one that has a track record of making sure that individuals are…

I'm talking about labor theory of value vis-a-vis this comment > Companies will always try to capture the productivity gains from a new tool or technique Ie "capitalists" are not rewarded for deploying capital and mitigating risk but for extracting as much from the labor as possible. And yes Marx is absolutely the "originator" of these ideas and yes absolutely you ask any orthodox economist (and many random armchair…

Gains from productivity will accrue to those with the most bargaining power. Whether that’s the employee or the employer is going to depend on the exact circumstances (realistically it will be some mix). Hence why factory workers today get paid more than in the 1800s (and factory owners as well!)

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#409

Post by tho234j234234 »

What has been the experience with using these tools for folks on HN.

I'm generally amazed at the JS stuff it can come up with from scratch, but asking it to implement features is often not quite great.

Far more often it can't even use the damn edit tool given to the LLM! I have to take some of the "excrement" left behind; may be do a git reset; and then carefully fix the code.

I'm not surprised the managerial class has gotten high on the kool-aid of replacing workers...

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#410

Post by zeroonetwothree »

neom wrote: post #177
philipwhiuk wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're paying $1000 a month to build a web app for fun? This seems like a crazy solution to a situation.

...wait till you find out how much my one friend spends on golf a year!!!!! Hobbies are expensive. This will take about 3 maybe 4 months, and I think i'll enjoy playing it with and so will all my friends and family, so it's worth it I think.

Well… many hobbies are not that expensive. But sure, $1k/month for enjoyment is totally reasonable.
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