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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

nytimes.com

351–360 of 897 posts

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#351
> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works.

That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification of “if it compiles, ship it!”

> “It would be crazy if in an auto factory people were measuring to make sure every angle is correct,” he said, since machines now do the work. “It’s not as important as when it was group of ten people pounding out the metal.”

Except that the machines doing that work aren’t regularly hallucinating angles, spurious welding joints, etc.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#352

Will AI also start developing creative tools such as new VST plugins or photoshop filters? What about low-level low-latency tools needed for some industries or for aerospace. I guess at some point we won't need so many humans to run our Kubernetes clusters or maintain our WordPress sites but won't there always be something to do that pushes the boundaries of human needs and desires that can't be done by AI?

I keep meaning to experiment with vibe-coded VSTs. The shell and UI parts should be easy to automate, because they're basically boilerplate. But I doubt AI knows enough about DSP to design an incredible new reverb algorithm, or is an expert on bandwidth-limited oscillator design. Or maybe it is? When I have some time, I'll find out.

You might be interested in this video, which is about a physical guitar pedal someone made using a chatgpt-based design. Same idea but all analog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-PTzq1bv9M

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#353
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The narrative reflects a broader cultural shift, from "we are all in this together" (pandemic) to "our organizations are bloated and people don't work hard enough" (already pre-LLM hype post-pandemic). The observation that less-skilled people can, with the help of LLMs, take the work of traditionally more-skilled people fits this narrative. In the end, it is about demoting some types of knowledge workers from the ski…

The skilled class is the working class and always has been. The delusion that software developers were ever outside the working class because they were paid well is just that - an arrogant delusion.

Engineering is always boom/bust. Ask a retired aerospace engineer who got purged in the 90s.

Technology always automates jobs away. I had a dedicated database systems team 25 years ago that was larger than an infrastructure team managing 1000x more stuff today. Dev teams are bloated in most places, today.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#354
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to ban you! I hope to persuade you to stop using personally pejorative language in your HN comments, which you've unfortunately been doing a lot of. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44089951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44089808 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44088236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44088105 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44040448 https://news.ycombinator.com…

If those comments are the problem rather than the messages to which they're responding, then ban me. But again, beware the discourse you welcome, because bad ideas deserve to be challenged.

I think you're probably overestimating the provocation in other people's comments and underestimating the provocation in your own. This is something nearly everyone does.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I can't think of another area where AI could amplify the effect of my existing level of knowledge as it does with coding. It's far exceeding my expectations.

So, the internet was great until Facebook showed up. Facebook of AI is coming and it's going to be much, much worse. and it'll still contain as you describe.

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#356

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. this matches the description of every codebase (except one) I came across in my 30-year career

Then you had some very shitty jobs. Good teams put time and effort in architecture before development.

LLMs will produce code with good structure, as long as you provide that architecture before hand.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> English (or all spoken human language) is not precise enough to articulate what you want your code to do Exactly. And this is why I feel like we are going to go full circle on this. We've seen this cycle in our industry a couple times now: "Formal languages are hard, wouldn't it be great if we could just talk in English and the computer would understand what we mean?" -> "Natural languages are ambiguous and not pre…

it doesn't have to be precise enough anymore though because a perfect AI can get all the details from the existing code and understand your intent from your prompt.

Every time someone points out the fundamental limitation of natural languages vs. formal languages, there's another zealot quick to reply with a logic defying concept of a plan.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m concerned that it might not be easy to vibecode a security fix for a complex codebase, especially when the flaw was introduced by vibecoding.

My new favourite genre of schadenfreude are solo-preneur SaaS vibe-coders. They burn a pile of money. Maybe it’s their life savings, their parents’ money or their friends or some unlucky investors. But they go in thinking they’re going to join the privileged labourers without putting any of the time to develop the skills and without paying for that labour. GenAI the whole thing. And they post about it on socials like…

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#359
post #193
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that way of defining the working class is very sound. Everyone expect ~50 people would be working class, probably including Taylor Swift and Donald Trump. Also "working class" has a historical, social component, by which programmers are certainly not included.

Normalize it to a logarithmic scale, and the SWE is still quite obviously a wagie. But the gross and unconscionable concentration of power in a small handful of unelected oligarchs is not the relevant distinction here. When ownership of things can keep you and your family fed, clothed, and sheltered in comfort, you're part of the owning class. If it can't, you're a worker. Maybe a skilled worker, maybe a highly paid…

Yea for concrete numbers:

If you have somewhere between $5M and $10M in a HCoL American city, you are probably no longer working class insofar as you could quit, get on ACA healthcare, and rent a decent house or buy / mortgage a decent house and live a pretty comfortable life indefinitely. But you're on the very low end of not-working-class and are living a modest life (if you quit and stop drawing a salary).

If you have under that threshold (in a big expensive US city), you are probably still working class.

A lot of software engineers can get to $5M-$10M range in like 10-30 years depending on pay and savings rate. But also a lot of software engineers operate their budgets almost paycheck-to-paycheck, and will never get there.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#360

> [Harper Reed] cautioned against being overly precious about the value of deeply understanding one’s code, which is no longer necessary to ensure that it works. That just strikes me as an odd thing to say. I’m convinced that this is the dividing line between today’s software engineers and tomorrow’s AI engineers (in whatever form that takes - prompt, vibe, etc.) Reed’s statement feels very much like a justification…

Also, you know who did measure every angle to make sure it was correct? The engineers who put together the initial design. They sure as hell took their time getting every detail of the design right before it ever made it to the assembly line.

Who's filling that role in this brave new world?

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