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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

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341–350 of 897 posts

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#341
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it is perception. Writing software was long considered somewhat difficult and that it required smart people to do so. AI changes this perception and coding starts to be perceived as a low level task that anyone can do easily with augmentation from AI tools. I certainly agree that writing software is turning more into a factory job and is less intellectually rewarding now.

It has been a factory job for decades. Not everyone gets to code the next ground breaking algorithm at some R&D department. Most programming tasks are rather repetitive, and in many countries there is hardly anything to look up to software developers, it is another blue collar job. And in many cultures if you don't go into management after about five years, usually it is seen as a failure to grow up on their career.

"usually it is seen as a failure to grow up on their career."

What does that mean?

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#342

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure.

this matches the description of every codebase (except one) I came across in my 30-year career

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#343

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

You're not wrong that AI is hyped just like crypto and VR were. But it's also true that automation will increasingly impact your job, even for jobs that we have considered to be highly technical like software engineering.

I've noticed this over the last decade where tech people (of which I am one) have considered themselves above the problems of ordinary workers such as just affording to live. I really started to notice this in the lead up to the 2016 election where many privileged people did not recognize or just immediately dismissed the genuine anger and plight of working people.

This dovetails into the myth of meritocracy and the view that not having enough money or lacking basic necessities like food or shelter or a personal, moral failure and not a systemic problem.

Tech people in the 2010s were incredibly privileged. Earnings kept going up. There was seemingly infinite demand for our services. Life was in many ways great. The pandemic was the opportunity for employers to reign in runaway (from their perspective) labor costs.

Permanent layoff culture is nothing more than suppressesing wages. The facade of the warm, fuzzy Big Tech employer is long gone. They are defense contractors now. Google, Microsoft or Amazon are indistinguishable from Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.

So AI won't immediately replace you. It'll start by 4 engineers with AI being able to do the job that was previously done by 5. Laying off that one person saves that money directly but also suppresses the wages of the other 4 who won't be asking for raises. They're too afraid of losing their jobs. Then it'll be 3. Then 2.

A lot of people, particularly here on HN, are going to find out just how replaceable they are and how aligning with the interests of the very wealthiest was a huge mistake. You might get paid $500K+ a year but you are still a worker. Your interests align with nurses, teachers, baristas, fast food workers and truck drivers, not the Peter Thiels of the world.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#344
post #129
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for the time SEs are substantially better paid than working-class jobs, they are not the working class. For now, this applies at least to some regions, not only within the US. I agree in that I have at times felt some level of arrogance among some people taking up software engineering jobs, but IMO this just confirms the social class aspect of it. So there may have been some level of delusion to it, but at leas…

Is the wealth of the average software developer ($122 000/y) in the US closer to the wealth of: A) a coal miner with $60 000/y salary B) Elon Musk: $381 000 000 000 Sources: - https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/coal-miner-salary-SRCH_KO... - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-rich-6-8-170106956.... Is the average amount of properties (1-2) owned by a so…

Let me ask you this, do software engineers in unions enjoy more benefits and compensation than those not in Unions?

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#345
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same observation. I've been able to improve things I just didn't have the energy to do for a while. But if you're gonna be lazy, it will multiply the bad.

Recent example. Trying to get some third party hardware working with raspi The hardware provider provides 2 separate code bases with separate documentation but only supports the latest one. I literally had to force feed the newer code base into ChatGPT, and then feed in working example code to get it going, else it constantly reference the wrong methods. If I just kept going Code / output / repeat it would maybe have…

This is one of several shortcomings I’ve encountered in all major LLMs. The llm has consumed multiple versions of SDKs from the same manufacturer and cannot tell them apart. Mixing up apis, methods, macros, etc. Worse is that for more esoteric code with fewer samples, or more wrong than right answers in the corpus means always getting broken code. I had this issue working on some NXP embedded code.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#346
post #262
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that way of defining the working class is very sound. Everyone expect ~50 people would be working class, probably including Taylor Swift and Donald Trump. Also "working class" has a historical, social component, by which programmers are certainly not included.

> I don't think that way of defining the working class is very sound Oh, really? Is that why both "white-collar worker" and "blue-collar worker" contain the word "worker"? Working class is everyone who has to work for their money. Can most programmers, on a whim, afford to never work again? An average programmer's salary is 2x the average coal miner's. A CEO is nowadays paid 339 the salary of their average worker htt…

"One medical debt away from being destitute" is socialists trying to make common cause between the upper and lower class. We have great insurance and big piles of savings, there's nothing in common with people who can barely afford their deductible and lose their job for missing too much work.

The boundary between working class and not working class is not at the 99th percentile where you would have it. The diminishing marginal utility of money means you get 90% of the security of being wealthy at 0.1% of the net worth of a billionaire.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: AI has help me refactor things where I normally couldn’t. Things like extracting some common structure that’s present in a slightly different way in 30 places, where cursor detects it, or suggesting potential for a certain pattern. The problem with vibe coding is more behavioral I think: the person more likely to jump in the bandwagon to avoid writing some code themselves is probably not the one thinkin…

I'll quote one of the wisest people in tech I know of, Kentaro Toyama: "Technology acts as an amplifier of human intentions" ...so, if someone is just doing a sloppy job, AI-assisted vibe coding will enable them to do it faster.

From bill cosby’s “Himself” live standup recording from the early 1980s: “Cocaine intensifies your personality … but what if you’re an asshole?”

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#348
post #15

Is it really that LLM-based tools make developers so much more productive or rather that organizations have found out they can do with less -- and less privileged -- developers? What I don't really see, especially not big tech-internally, are stories of teams that have become amazingly more productive. For now it feels we get some minor productivity improvements that probably do not off-set the invest and are barely…

Organizations have long had a preference for 'deskilling' to something reliable through bureaucratic procedures, regardless of the side effects or even if it results in it costs more due to needing three people where one talented could do it before. Because it is more dependable, even if it is dependably mediocre. Even though this technique may lead to their long-term doom and irrelevance.

Please give some worked examples.

I'm not sure what: "'deskilling' to something reliable through bureaucratic procedures" ... means.

I'm the Managing Director of a small company and I'm pretty sure you are digging at the likes of me (int al) - so what am I doing wrong?

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#350
post #199

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

well, in all honesty, a lot of code that actually works in production, and delivers... goods, services, etc. is an over patched mess of code snippets. that sad part is that cpus are so powerful that it works.

Software is a gas that expands to fill its container.
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