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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> English (or all spoken human language) is not precise enough to articulate what you want your code to do Exactly. And this is why I feel like we are going to go full circle on this. We've seen this cycle in our industry a couple times now: "Formal languages are hard, wouldn't it be great if we could just talk in English and the computer would understand what we mean?" -> "Natural languages are ambiguous and not pre…

it doesn't have to be precise enough anymore though because a perfect AI can get all the details from the existing code and understand your intent from your prompt.

  "Forty-two!" yelled Loonquawl. "Is that all you've got to show for seven and a half million years' work?"

  "I checked it very thoroughly," said the computer, "and that quite definitely is the answer. I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is."

  "But it was the Great Question! The Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything!" howled Loonquawl.

  "Yes," said Deep Thought with the air of one who suffers fools gladly, "but what actually is it?"

  A slow, stupefied silence crept over the men as they stared at the computer and then at each other.
  
  "Well, you know, it's just everything... everything..." offered Phouchg weakly.
  
  "Exactly!" said Deep Thought. "So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means."

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#332
post #199

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

well, in all honesty, a lot of code that actually works in production, and delivers... goods, services, etc. is an over patched mess of code snippets. that sad part is that cpus are so powerful that it works.

This argument ignores the fact that AI makes it so much easier to ship a ton of garbage.

It’s like comparing a machine gun to a matchlock pistol and saying they’re the same thing.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: AI has help me refactor things where I normally couldn’t. Things like extracting some common structure that’s present in a slightly different way in 30 places, where cursor detects it, or suggesting potential for a certain pattern. The problem with vibe coding is more behavioral I think: the person more likely to jump in the bandwagon to avoid writing some code themselves is probably not the one thinkin…

> AI has help me refactor things where I normally couldn’t. Reading "couldn't" as, you would technically not be able to do it because of the complexity or intricacy of the problem, how did you guarantee that the change offered by the AI made proper sense and didn't leave out critical patterns that were too complex for you to detect ? Your comment makes it sound like you're now dependent on AI to refactor again if dir…

Sometimes a problem is a weird combination of hairy/obscure/tedious where I simply don’t have the activation energy to get started. Like, I could do it with a gun to my head.

But if someone else were to do it for me I would gratefully review the merge request.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working class is not defined by income level. The working class is those who own no significant means of production and thus must sell their labor at whatever price the market bears. That the market for SE labor is good(for the workers), doesn't mean SE's don't need to work to earn money.

Something I've always puzzled over is whether the means of production are our laptops, or our knowledge and expertise. I still work for a wage, but expect to be paid above subsistence. I don't own the laptop that I use at work, but also don't own the carpeting on the floor. Both are commodities. Is the concept of "intellectual capital" a figment of my imagination, or a flaw of the traditional class identifiers? Or bo…

The means of production are the software you produce, the servers they run on, and the patents, proprietary data, algorithms, and other intellectual property that are the byproduct of your labor.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It only looks effective if you remove learning from the equation. It's effective on things that would take months/years to learn, if someone could reasonably learn it on their own at all. I tried vibe coding a Java program as if I was pair programming with an AI, and I encountered some very "Java" issues that I would not have even had the opportunity to get experience in unless I was lucky enough to work on a Fortu…

I just came out from a cave, what is this vibe coding?

Might not be the case for the senior devs on HN, but for most people in this industry, it's copy/pasting a jira ticket into a LLM, which generates some code that seems to work and a ton of useless comments, then pushing it on github without even looking at it once and then moving to the next ticket.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about codebase maintainability over time. I hypothesize that it takes some period of time for vibe-coding to slowly "bit rot" a complex codebase with abstractions and subtle bugs, slowly making it less robust and more difficult to maintain, and more difficult to add new features/functionality. So while companies may be seeing what appears to be increases in output _now_, they may be missing the increased dra…

I’m concerned that it might not be easy to vibecode a security fix for a complex codebase, especially when the flaw was introduced by vibecoding.

My new favourite genre of schadenfreude are solo-preneur SaaS vibe-coders.

They burn a pile of money. Maybe it’s their life savings, their parents’ money or their friends or some unlucky investors. But they go in thinking they’re going to join the privileged labourers without putting any of the time to develop the skills and without paying for that labour. GenAI the whole thing. And they post about it on socials like they’re special or something.

Then boom. A month later. “Can everyone stop hacking me already, I can’t make this stop. Why is this happening?”

Mostly I feel sorry for the people who get duped into paying for this crap and have their data stolen.

There’s like almost zero liability for messing around like this.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#337
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And once AI is not there anymore, you're back on square one. It only looks effective if you remove learning from the equation. It's the wrong tool for the job, that's what it is.

> It only looks effective if you remove learning from the equation. It's effective on things that would take months/years to learn, if someone could reasonably learn it on their own at all. I tried vibe coding a Java program as if I was pair programming with an AI, and I encountered some very "Java" issues that I would not have even had the opportunity to get experience in unless I was lucky enough to work on a Fortu…

Not at all true. You just adopted the wrong model to partner with it. Think of yourself as an old school analyst vs a programmer.

Throw a big context window model like Gemini at it to document the architecture unless good documentation exists. Then use modify that document to drive development of new or modified code.

Many big waterfall projects already have a process for this - use the AI instead of marginally capable offshore developers.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon pays really well maybe 10 years ago. HR is like a rabid dog, fighting for every dollar.

They, the HR and bean counters of the world, don't see the big picture. It's optimize optimize optimize, but then they don't consider what they're actually trying to achieve. Typically if you squeeze every penny, you end up with shit. You can do it, but those costs don't just - poof - disappear. They might, and often do, become more difficult to measure. So if you're the measuring guy, it might look great to you.

its hard to provide the best customer experience when i have to sell stock in order to pay rent in the GSA, and have to pay out the ass for prescriptions because our garbage health insurance doesnt cover anything.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#339

With all the changes coming up, I am happy that I am retiring soon. Since I started in the 90s, SW dev has become more and more tightly controlled and feels more like an assembly line. When I started, you could work for weeks and months without much interruption. You had plenty of time for experimentation and creativity. Now everything is ticked based and you constantly have to report status and justify what you are…

> Since I started in the 90s, SW dev has become more and more tightly controlled and feels more like an assembly line. When I started, you could work for weeks and months without much interruption. You had plenty of time for experimentation and creativity. Now everything is ticked based and you constantly have to report status and justify what you are doing Yeah the consistent "reporting" of "status" on "stand-ups" w…

I tried, but I couldn't get a job as a web dev in the 90s because nobody in my area knew what the web was, I'm not sure anyone in my country did.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on whose tradition is under discussion. In the contemporary American usage, "working class" means the trades, or factory and service work. Few people would call a physician or lawyer "working class" even though they are paid for their time (and knowledge).

I wonder about your contemporaries. I imagine that most of them have a completely different definition to you, because you and doctors and lawyers are - to a rounding error - working class and everyone but you is aware of it.

As someone who used to be in the actual working class (plastic factory), it's not the same at all. Professional-Managerial Class (PMC) covers the autonomy and good treatment the working class can't have. Plus just talk to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional%E2%80%93manageria...

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