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Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

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Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most accurate models of anything necessarily account for the underlying mechanisms But they don't necessarily convey understanding to humans. Prediction is not explanation. There is a difference between Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and a deep neural network that predicts gravity. The latter is virtually useless for understanding gravity (that's even if makes better predictions). > Specifically in the…

> No, they just fit surface statistics, not underlying reality. I would dispute this claim. I would argue that as models become more accurate they necessarily more closely resemble the underlying phenomena which they seek to model. In other words, I would claim that as a model more closely matches those "surface statistics" it necessarily more closely resembles the underlying mechanisms that gave rise to them. I will…

This is getting away from the original point which is that deep neural networks are, by default, not explanatory in the way Einstein's theory of relativity is.

But even so,

> In other words, I would claim that as a model more closely matches those "surface statistics" it necessarily more closely resembles the underlying mechanisms that gave rise to them.

I don't what it means, for example, for a deep neural network, to "more resemble" the underlying process of the weather. It's also obviously false in general: If you have a mechanical clock and quartz-crystal analog clock you are not going to be able to derive the internal workings of either or distinguish between them from the hand positions. The same is true for two different pseudo-random number generator circuits that produce the same output.

> I have yet to see an example where a more accurate model was conceptually simpler than the simplest known model at some lower level of accuracy.

I don't understand what you mean. Simple models often yield a high level of understanding without being better predictors. For example an idealized ball rolling down a plane, Galileo's mass/gravity thought experiment, Kepler etc. Many of these models ignore less important details to focus on the fundamental ones.

> From an information theoretic angle I think it's similar to compression (something that ML also happens to be almost unbelievably good at). Related to this, I've seen it argued somewhere (I don't immediately recall where though) that learning (in both the ML and human sense) amounts to constructing a world model via compression and that rings true to me.

In practice you get nowhere trying to recreate the internals of a cryptographic pseudo-random number generator from the output it produces (maybe in theory you could do it with infinite data and no bounds on computational complexity or something) even though the generator itself could be highly compressed.

> Sure, but what leads to those theories? They are invariably the result of attempting to more accurately model the things which we can observe.

Yes but if the model does not lead to understanding you cannot come up with the new ideas.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can LLMs actually parse human languages? IMHO, no, they have nothing approaching understanding. It's Chinese Rooms[1] all the way down, just with lots of bell and whistles. Spicy autocomplete. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Go ask the operator of a Chinese room to do some math they weren't taught in school, and see if the translation guide helps. The analogy I've used before is a bright first-grader named Johnny. Johnny stumbles across a high school algebra book. Unless Johnny's last name is von Neumann, he isn't going to get anything out of that book. An LLM will. So much for the Chinese Room.

> Go ask the operator of a Chinese room to do some math they weren't taught in school, and see if the translation guide helps.

That analogy only holds if LLMs can solve novel problems that can be proven to not exist in any form in their training material.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#173
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go ask the operator of a Chinese room to do some math they weren't taught in school, and see if the translation guide helps. The analogy I've used before is a bright first-grader named Johnny. Johnny stumbles across a high school algebra book. Unless Johnny's last name is von Neumann, he isn't going to get anything out of that book. An LLM will. So much for the Chinese Room.

> Go ask the operator of a Chinese room to do some math they weren't taught in school, and see if the translation guide helps. That analogy only holds if LLMs can solve novel problems that can be proven to not exist in any form in their training material.

They do. Spend some time using a modern reasoning model. There is a class of interesting problems, nestled between trivial ones whose answers can simply be regurgitated and difficult ones that either yield nonsense or involve tool use, that transformer networks can absolutely, incontrovertibly reason about.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restricted to linguistics, LLM's supposed lack of understanding should be a non-sequitur. If the question is whether LLMs have formed a coherent ability to parse human languages, the answer is obviously yes. In fact not just human languages, as seen with multimodality the same transformer architecture seems to work well to model and generate anything with inherent structure. I'm surprised that he doesn't mention "uni…

Can LLMs actually parse human languages? Or can they react to stimuli with a trained behavioral response? Dogs can learn to sit when you say "sit", and learn to roll over when you say "roll over". But the dog doesn't parse human language; it reacts to stimuli with a trained behavioral response. (I'm not that familiar with LLM/ML, but it seems like trained behavioral response rather than intelligent parsing. I believe…

LLMs are modelling the world, not just "predicting the next token". They are certainly not akin to parrots. Some examples here[1][2][3]. Anyone claiming otherwise at this point is not arguing in good faith.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.15943

[2] https://x.com/OwainEvans_UK/status/1894436637054214509

[3] https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-language...

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#175
post #26

Insect behaviour. Flight of birds. Turtle navigation. A footballer crossing the field to intercept a football. This is what Chomsky always wanted ai to be... especially language ai. Clever solutions to complex problems. Simple once you know how they work. Elegant. I sympathize. I'm a curious human. We like elegant, simple revelations that reveal how out complex world is really simple once you know it's secrets. This…

> Maybe LLMs do teach us something about language... that language is complicated.

It certainly teaches us many things. But an LLM trained on as many words (or generally speaking an AI trained on sounds) in similar quantities of a toddler learning to understand, parse and apply language, would not perform well with current architectures. They need orders of magnitude more training material to get even close. Basically, current AI learns slowly, but of course it’s much faster in wall clock time because it’s all computer.

What I mean is: what makes an ALU (CPU) better than a human at arithmetic? It’s just faster and makes fewer errors. Similarly, what makes Google or Wikipedia better than an educated person? It’s just storing and helping you access stored information, it’s not magic (anymore). You can manually do everything mechanically, if you’re willing to waste the time to prove a point.

An LLM does many things better than humans, but we forget they’ve been trained on all written history and have hundreds of billions of parameters. If you compare what an LLM can do with the same amount of training to a human, the human is much better even at picking up patterns – current AIs strongest skill. The magic comes from the unseen vast amounts of training data. This is obvious when using them – stray just slightly outside of the training zone to unfamiliar domains and ”ability” drops rapidly. The hard part is figuring out these fuzzy boundaries. How far does interpolating training data get you? What are the highest level patterns are encoded in the training data? And most importantly, to what extent do those patterns apply to novel domains?

Alternatively, you can use LLMs as a proxy for understanding the relationship between domains, instead of letting humans label them and decide the taxonomy. One such example is the relationship between detecting patterns and generating text and images – it turns out to be more or less reversible through the same architecture. More such remarkable similarities and anti-similarities are certainly on the horizon. For instance, my gut feeling says that small talk is closer to driving a car but very different from puzzle solving. We don’t really have a (good) taxonomy over human- or animal brain processes.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#176

I confess my opinion of Noam Chomsky dropped a lot from reading this interview. The way he set up a "Tom Jones" strawman and kept dismissing positions using language like "we'd laugh", "total absurdity", etc. was really disappointing. I always assumed that academics were only like that on reddit, and in real life they actually made a serious effort at rigorous argument, avoiding logical fallacies and the like. Yet he…

There's a reason Max Planck said science advances one funeral at a time. Researches spend their lives developing and promoting the ideas they cut their teeth on (or in this case developed himself) and their view of what is possible becomes ossified around these foundational beliefs. Expecting him to be flexible enough in his advanced age to view LLMs with a fresh perspective, rather than strongly informed by his core theoretical views is expecting too much.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can LLMs actually parse human languages? IMHO, no, they have nothing approaching understanding. It's Chinese Rooms[1] all the way down, just with lots of bell and whistles. Spicy autocomplete. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Go ask the operator of a Chinese room to do some math they weren't taught in school, and see if the translation guide helps. The analogy I've used before is a bright first-grader named Johnny. Johnny stumbles across a high school algebra book. Unless Johnny's last name is von Neumann, he isn't going to get anything out of that book. An LLM will. So much for the Chinese Room.

An LLM will get ... what exactly ? The ability to reorder its sentences ? The LLM doesn't think, doesn't understand, doesn't know what matters more than not, doesn't use what it learns, doesn't expand what it learns to new knowledge, doesn't enjoy reading that book and doesn't suffer through it.

So what is it really gonna do with a book, that LLM ? Reorder its internal matrix to be a little bit more precise when autocompleting sentences sounding like the book ? We could build an nvidia cluster the size of the Sun and it would repeat sentences back to us in unbelievable ways but would still be unable to take a knowledge-based decision, I fear.

So what are we in awe at exactly ? A pretty parrot.

The day the Chinese room metaphor disappears is when ChatGPT replies to you that your question is so boring it doesn't want to expend the resources to think about it. But it'd be ready to talk about this or that, that it's currently trying to get better at. When it finally has agency over its own intelligence. When it acquires a purpose.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#178
The level of intellectual engagement with Chomsky's ideas in the comments here is shockingly low. Surely, we are capable of holding these two thoughts: one, that the facility of LLMs is fantastic and useful, and two, that the major breakthroughs of AI this decade have not, at least so far, substantially deepened our understanding of our own intelligence and its constitution.

That may change, particularly if the intelligence of LLMs proves to be analogous to our own in some deep way—a point that is still very much undecided. However, if the similarities are there, so is the potential for knowledge. We have a complete mechanical understanding of LLMs and can pry apart their structure, which we cannot yet do with the brain. And some of the smartest people in the world are engaged in making LLMs smaller and more efficient; it seems possible that the push for miniaturization will rediscover some tricks also discovered by the blind watchmaker. But these things are not a given.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#179
Maybe I am missing context, but it seems like he’s defending himself from the claim that we shouldn’t bother studying language acquisition and comprehension in humans because of LLM’s?

Who would make such a claim? LLM’s are of course incredible, but it seems obvious that their mechanism is quite different than the human brain.

I think the best you can say is that one could motivate lines of inquiry in human understanding, especially because we can essentially do brain surgery on an LLM in action in a way that we can’t with humans.

Re: Chomsky on what ChatGPT is good for (2023)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restricted to linguistics, LLM's supposed lack of understanding should be a non-sequitur. If the question is whether LLMs have formed a coherent ability to parse human languages, the answer is obviously yes. In fact not just human languages, as seen with multimodality the same transformer architecture seems to work well to model and generate anything with inherent structure. I'm surprised that he doesn't mention "uni…

Can LLMs actually parse human languages? Or can they react to stimuli with a trained behavioral response? Dogs can learn to sit when you say "sit", and learn to roll over when you say "roll over". But the dog doesn't parse human language; it reacts to stimuli with a trained behavioral response. (I'm not that familiar with LLM/ML, but it seems like trained behavioral response rather than intelligent parsing. I believe…

The terms are too unclear here. Can you define what it means to "be able to parse human language"? I'm sure contemporary chatbots score higher on typical reading comprehension tests than most humans. You're certainly correct that llms "only" react to stimuli with a trained response, but I guess anything that isn't consciousness necessarily fits that description
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