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A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

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Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#241
People are getting confused between two different categories for software.

Software License metric: [F] Free and Open Source, [P] Proprietary/Closed source

This metric can also be modeled as a continuous variable rather than a discrete variable. But let us stick to two values for simplicity.

Development model metric: ranges from extremely [C] Cathedral-type, .........., to extremely [B] Anarchism/Bazaar-type

FOSS proponents don't care about development model as long as it's FOSS.

Let [x][y] denote the Software License metric (x) and Development model metric (y) of a software project.

Observations:

1. [P][C] is the combination that FOSS proponents hate the most.

2. [x][B] where x ∈ {F, P}; is less peer-reviewed (anyone can commit anything), so less accountability/responsibility, highly decentralized, so no guarantee of quality.

2.1. [P][B] sounds like a contradiction!

2.2. [F][B] Poul-Henning Kamp seems to have problems with this kind of setups.

3. [F][y] where y -> B (i.e. closer to [B] than it's closer to [C]). Mostly same as [F][C] except that it is mildly better.

4. [F][C] In this setup, the cathedral authority is the bottleneck in improving the project.

5. [F][y] where y -> C (i.e. closer to [C] than it's closer to [B]). This kind of setup "works like a charm!" See the overall success of GNU/Linux in the industry! There are some people who act as maintainers of Linux, but come on, you too can become one! The more popular such a software is the more thoroughly it is reviewed. "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow."

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#242
I'm another grumpy old man, much like I imagine the OP. I have mixed feelings about this topic.

I found the autoconf comments amusing, we have supported a pretty broad range of platforms, from arm to 390's, IRIX to SCO, as well as Linux, Windows, MacOS, and our configure script is 157 lines of shell. Autoconf had its place but I think it was much more useful in the past and now it is baggage. The fact that it is still used (abused?) as much as it is sort of speaks to phk's points.

I think the jury is still out on whether the bazaar approach is better or not. It sure is messier but it also seems to adapt faster. I worked at cathedral places like Sun, and while I continue to emulate their approach I also question whether that approach is as nimble as the bazaar approach.

I've voted for the older style of more careful development and I think it has worked pretty well for us, we can support our products in the market place and support them well. The cost of that is we move more slowly, we tend to have the "right" answer but it takes us a while to get there. Bazaar approaches tend to come up with answers of varying quality faster.

It's really not clear to me which way is better. I'd be interested in hearing from someone / some company that is supporting a lot of picky enterprise customers with some sort of infrastructure product (database, source management, maybe bug tracking) and making a success of it with a bazaar approach. Seems like it would be tough but maybe I'm missing some insight.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#243
All of this is just such antagonistic linkbate if you ask me. No offense to OP, but it really just seems like oh I had a controversial thought so I'll play up two sides.

Maybe one isn't better than the other? Maybe they are just different kinds of things and some people work better in one or the other. Maybe some projects do to. We live and work in dynamic environments and there is no big T Truth in design. People change, the requirements change, the market changes.

Indulging in this kind of petty software holier-than-thou while highlighting only flaws and failures as defining characteristics of another generation is only destructive for the entire community.

If OP was serious this would have actually been about showing a new generation of coders good cathedrals, and not just banal whining.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#244
post #224
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my background is mathematics You are a terrible example because you come from a formal background of a hard science. Even worse, you come from one where proofs (the cathedral in the mathematics sense) are required or you aren't taken seriously. The parent was talking about joe schmo off the street or the high school wunderkind who is building "twitter for teens" or "pinterest for social good". They are just slapping…

The startup game has tons of formally educated people, and their failure rate is just as spectacularly high, if not higher. In my experience, the formally educated tend to build "science projects" at a higher rate than businesses, when compared to those building "twitter for teens"

their failure rate is just as spectacularly high, if not higher

I asked a question, you are making a statement. If you have numbers that prove that the formally educated are failing more then I think we'd all love to see them. Otherwise, this is just conjecture.

As for 'science projects' failing it could be a number of things. I would assume that hard science startups fail a lot of the time because of cost. "Twitter for teens" is much cheaper to start than one doing alternative energy. Also, hard science is less sexy than a lot of the social stuff that currently dominates the landscape. Thusly, it can be much more difficult to find the money you need due to visibility. The social startups will probably pay out sooner than long-tail hard science companies.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very interesting that you bring up kqueue. I was about to bring up kqueue, but for a different reason. Planning ahead can lead to great things. The Notre Dame, and the dozens of other cathedrals throughout Europe are positively stunning ... I love and I hate kqueue. I mean, I love kqueue. I love the way it can be used from C, I love the way it's integrated in MacRuby...I spent the weekend studying Clojure's redu…

> I hate kqueue because, in all likelihood, I'll never get to use it in a production system, because it's not in Linux. Cathedrals can be nice to look at. Bazaars are often more functional. Except that FreeBSD is functional in production, so what is the actual problem? That market effects and accidents of history resulted in Linux becoming more widely adopted? What does that argue for, exactly?

If Linux became more popular/more widely supported by mere chance, then there's nothing to argue about, and nothing to learn...

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind simply reading the thread? You are inventing an argument that does not exist. I did not make a value judgement, I corrected an erroneous statement. Nothing more.

I did read it. I just think the "complete OS" think doesn't really make sense. Is it superior because of it? More elegant?

I do not how to make this any clearer for you. You said the reason his freebsd system works is because a bunch of independent components happen to fit together. This is false, and that is what I said. That's it. If you said 1+1=3 and I said "actually, 1+1=2" would you then insist on a giant thread of trying to create an argument about whether or not two is a good number?

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#247
I write this as a thankful and proud user of Varnish; which =I assume= phkamp would place as a cathedral type of software. I agree with; quality requiring someone being responsible, importance of code reuse, and the observation of full 10 years of dumb copy/paste (though i believe in copy/paste). Eric Raymond's distinction of Cathedral/Bazaar is somewhat a useless dichotomy, on the problems mentioned. Here are 2 examples how Varnish could do better (independent of being developed as bazaar or cathedral)

1) Varnish does not support SSL, which complicates deployment architectures; and part of the the blame goes to lack of a good ssl implementation to copy from or to write an SSL proxy; https://www.varnish-cache.org/docs/trunk/phk/ssl.html I find this as an example of why neither bazaar nor cathedral based approaches yielding something "acceptable" in past 15 years, to copy and paste from.

2) Varnish VCL, as a DSL looks as obscure M4 macro language and the functions are not well planned; and another guy (from the bazaar) would design some more coherent language.

=> To my mind the culprit is the scarcity of monetization opportunities for infrastructure components, which pushes talent (candidates for "being responsible") to elsewhere where money is. I mean, nginx/varnish developers should earn 100s of millions; according to their merit. People are making billions by using ruby, python, rails, sinatra, django, debian, varnish, nginx, openssl, and hundreds of libraries for libtool... but their everyday creators don't get enough reward back to feel responsible. Passion and hobby, benevolence or PR are the only drivers for most infrastructure and library development. Some developers lose their faith in a man's lifespan, fight back or quit in full despair.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#248
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Linux has flown past FreeBSD . . . because Linux distributions like Debian provided a clearly superior experience for the overhall system by rejecting the decades of accumulated hacks Debian contains tons of accumulated hacks that I wish would be rejected.

I won't disagree with that entirely but the Debian / Ubuntu community has shown considerably above average willingness to make major changes to fix that.

Debian has also introduced new regrettable hacks, like run-parts's special handling (i.e., ignoring) of files whose names contain a period.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate kqueue because, in all likelihood, I'll never get to use it in a production system, because it's not in Linux. Cathedrals can be nice to look at. Bazaars are often more functional. Except that FreeBSD is functional in production, so what is the actual problem? That market effects and accidents of history resulted in Linux becoming more widely adopted? What does that argue for, exactly?

If Linux became more popular/more widely supported by mere chance, then there's nothing to argue about, and nothing to learn...

It's not chance, but it was very likely due to market conditions that have little to do with development methodologies or outright code quality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDi was hugely crippling at a very critical moment.

In a similar vein, PostgreSQL lost out to MySQL in no small part due to:

- PHP supported MySQL out of the box.

- MySQL was slightly easier to get running.

If there's a lesson we ought to learn, it's that market success may be partially or fully disassociated from actual merit relative to other market entrants. We've seen this in commercial software. It would be foolish to think it doesn't apply to open-source.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Linux has flown past FreeBSD . . . because Linux distributions like Debian provided a clearly superior experience for the overhall system by rejecting the decades of accumulated hacks Debian contains tons of accumulated hacks that I wish would be rejected.

A debian system from a user's perspective is so easy to use. It's when I dug into the packaging world that I reeled back in horror and shock.

Digging into /etc (particularly, the scripts that run on boot-up) made me reel back.
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