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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The means of production for a software engineer is a laptop. Many SEs own them. There are no raw materials or factories needed to produce software, at least not in the sense of traditional production.

You could say the same thing of hands. What really distinguishes capital from labor is not what counts as a tool, but market power. A large number of non-unionized workers are inherently at a disadvantage against a small number of employers with exorbitantly costly infra.

But for the software developer, the tool is also the factory.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#242
post #15

Is it really that LLM-based tools make developers so much more productive or rather that organizations have found out they can do with less -- and less privileged -- developers? What I don't really see, especially not big tech-internally, are stories of teams that have become amazingly more productive. For now it feels we get some minor productivity improvements that probably do not off-set the invest and are barely…

Organizations have long had a preference for 'deskilling' to something reliable through bureaucratic procedures, regardless of the side effects or even if it results in it costs more due to needing three people where one talented could do it before. Because it is more dependable, even if it is dependably mediocre. Even though this technique may lead to their long-term doom and irrelevance.

Yes and (adjacently):

Seeing Like a State by James Scott

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

Explains a lot of the confusing stuff I've experienced, in that eureka sort of way.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#244

You know, the point of AI in coding seems to be so that you can code in English, instead of a formal language. (And for some reason we're pretending like these formalisms are hard and the people that understand them evil gatekeepers, to which I'd say: nope to both propositions. It has never been easier to learn how to code.) The thing I don't understand is why anyone thinks this is an improvement. I think anyone that…

> (And for some reason we're pretending like these formalisms are hard and the people that understand them evil gatekeepers, to which I'd say: nope to both propositions. It has never been easier to learn how to code.) I am not a professional programmer, and I tend to bounce between lots of different languages depending on the problem I'm trying to solve. If I had all of the syntax for a given language memorized, I ca…

I mean, I'm not a mathematician but I don't expect that I should be able to write a proof.

You talk of memorizing syntax like its a challenge but excluding a small number of advanced languages no programmer thinks syntax is hard. But if you don't understand the basics how can you expect to be able to understand if the solution an LLM presents is decent and not rife with bugs (security and otherwise)

I guess my issue is people are confusing a shortcut with actually being able to do the thing. If you can't remember syntax I don't really want your code anywhere I care about

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#245
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please stop crossing into personal attack? Your account has unfortunately been doing this a lot and we ban accounts that do that. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

Nothing in my comment was a personal attack, only a reflection of GP's own behaviour. Go ahead and ban the account if calling out these comments as written is unwelcome. But beware the behaviour you welcome by leading it unchallenged.

I don't want to ban you! I hope to persuade you to stop using personally pejorative language in your HN comments, which you've unfortunately been doing a lot of.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44089951

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44089808

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44088236

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44088105

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44040448

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44040666

If you don't like the phrase "personal attack" we can call it something else, but the point is you can't treat other commenters this way on HN, regardless of how wrong anyone is or you feel they are.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#246

Will AI also start developing creative tools such as new VST plugins or photoshop filters? What about low-level low-latency tools needed for some industries or for aerospace. I guess at some point we won't need so many humans to run our Kubernetes clusters or maintain our WordPress sites but won't there always be something to do that pushes the boundaries of human needs and desires that can't be done by AI?

I keep meaning to experiment with vibe-coded VSTs. The shell and UI parts should be easy to automate, because they're basically boilerplate. But I doubt AI knows enough about DSP to design an incredible new reverb algorithm, or is an expert on bandwidth-limited oscillator design. Or maybe it is? When I have some time, I'll find out.

I'm sure it could replicate any existing algorithm or riff on combinations, but a good plugin is made carefully by hand by an artisan who knows what they are looking to achieve, who knows what to listen for. I'm skeptical that a pure AI algorithm would be anything but plagiarism on existing designs.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#247
post #192

You can speed up software development dramatically by simply copying the code that someone else was foolish/idealistic enough to store on GitHub, stripping out the copyright and licensing notices, and adapting it to your needs The problem with that is that you don't want to get caught doing that directly. So you need to hire a sleazy offshore firm to launder that for you. Or (faster and cheaper) use a sleazy "AI" to…

I'm curious what industry you work in. Rarely have I run into a large problem that was tempting to solve with Stackoverflow/Github-driven development. I find the limiting factor is never "we don't have the code" and more "we don't know what code we need".

I certainly agree that there are many important aspects to software development, other than just code.

But I don't want to confuse the point, and accidentally be thinking "plagiarism of code isn't important, because code isn't important" (or the limiting factor).

For one reason, code is important, and valuable...

There's plenty of evidence throughout many types of software development to suggest that a lot of money has to be plowed into simply producing bulk of code -- excluding domain or market understanding, requirements analysis, holistic system design, etc.

A typical growth startup wasn't in a hiring frenzy for great analytical minds, but simply to scale up production of raw bulk of code (and connecting together legally-obtained off-the-shelf pieces). And they were often tracking quantitative metrics on that bulk, and consciously aware of how much all those code-monkey salaries were costing on the balance sheet. They paid it because code bulk was very necessary, the way they were working.

There's also plenty of evidence of the popularity of copy&paste reuse for many years. Including from StackOverflow.

Copying entire projects and subsystems has been much-much less common, partly due to the aforementioned not wanting to get caught doing it. But "AI" laundering is paving the way. See all the blog posts and videos about "I created an app/game/site in an hour with AI".

We can also look at startup schools of thought, where execution is widely regarded to be everything (ideas are a dime a dozen). There is plenty of thinking that churning out code is one of the most time-consuming or frequently-blocking parts of execution.

In both startups and established corporate environments, there are normally big lags between when a need for specific code is identified, and when that code can be delivered. Doesn't that look like a limiting factor, or at least it must be important.

I think that's enough reason that we not dismiss the value of code, nor dismiss the importance of plagiarism of code.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#248

To me it feels like part of the hype train, like crypto & VR. I recently had the (dis)pleasure of fixing a bug in a codebase that was vibe coded. It ends up being a collection of disorganized business problems converted into code, without any kind of structure. Refinements are implemented as super-narrow patches, resulting in complex and unorganized code, whereas a human developer might take a step back to try and ex…

I feel you and would personally pay a bit more for LLMs trained on 'senior code'.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#249
post #6

What even are most programmers at Amazon doing? It seems like all the interesting bits (the MVP of Amazon's major products) was developed long ago. All the low-hanging fruit is gone so the task is now focused on squeezing the few remaining drops of efficiency out of the stone.

Until you join a FAANG you simply cannot imagine the complexity of the systems and how much has not been automated and how much there is to build. I've been in Amazon for close to a decade, and I constantly think "I can't believe X hasn't been automated in the 30 years that Amazon has existed and is still done on Excel". Most engineers will work on new features for at least half of the year, and I personally work on…

working in a warehouse, just recently built over the last 4 years, and the pallet management is done via excel. im pretty sure the scanner app is just a frontend.

horrified to think the totes are done the same way.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#250
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working class is not defined by income level. The working class is those who own no significant means of production and thus must sell their labor at whatever price the market bears. That the market for SE labor is good(for the workers), doesn't mean SE's don't need to work to earn money.

This is an interesting perspective, and I assume your definition is the technically correct one. Still, many SEs receive substantial compensation in RSUs, direct stocks, shares in startups, et cetera. So also from this perspective, there are many non-working class SEs. Another aspect is that culturally, the perception has been that SEs don't necessarily sell their work by the hour, but instead sell knowledge that sca…

To be technical, and to borrow a bit. Proletariat[1] are the working class, they work for the Bourgeoisie[2], the people who own the means of productions. That's why I asked why you used demote. Lower, Middle and Upper are strata or ranks within classes. Within the bourgeoisie, you can distinguish:

Petite bourgeoisie: small business owners, shopkeepers

Haute bourgeoisie: industrialists, financiers

Managerial class (in some frameworks): high-paid non owners who control labor

Within the proletariat, you can distinguish:

Lumpenproletariat[3]: unemployed, precarious

Skilled laborers vs unskilled laborers

Labor aristocracy: better-paid, sometimes ideologically closer to capital

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat [1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie [2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat [3]

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