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At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

nytimes.com

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Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#31
post #12

I said it before and I'll say it again: it's high time we got the taste of our own medicine. Getting people out of jobs has been the main selling point of our industry since its first days, this is what we've collectively been doing for decades. Do I want my job to be automated right in front of my eyes? Not really. Do I see some poetic justice in the whole thing? Absolutely.

How is it poetic justice? Were we advocating for automation?

> How is it poetic justice? Were we advocating for automation?

Yes? I know I did, still do, and will continue to at least.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#32
I'm a software engineer at Amazon and I'm directly and indirectly involved a lot in programs related to GenAI tooling.

I can safely say this article is bullshit. While there are a lot of programs ongoing to allow builders to adopt GenAI tooling, and while there is definitely a lot of communication ongoing around those programs, nobody is, at all, forced to use any of the AI tools. None are installed by default or enabled by default anywhere, and everyone is free to completely ignore them.

That said, is there an increase in expectations? Yes. But that's just normal Amazon in an employer's market, and has nothing to do with LLMs and GenAI.

The comparison to Microsoft where we can witness in public the .Net maintainers fighting with the shit code generated by Copilot on their repos is ridiculous. Amazon is probably one of the companies pushing the least and being the most prudent about GenAI adoption.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#33
post #12

I said it before and I'll say it again: it's high time we got the taste of our own medicine. Getting people out of jobs has been the main selling point of our industry since its first days, this is what we've collectively been doing for decades. Do I want my job to be automated right in front of my eyes? Not really. Do I see some poetic justice in the whole thing? Absolutely.

Software development is the most automated career in the history of all time.

Assemblers, Linkers, Compilers, Copying, Macros, Makefiles, Code gen, Templates, CI & CD, Editors, Auto-complete, IDEs are all terms that describe types of automation in software development.

LLM-generated code is another form of automation, but it certainly isn't the first. Right now most of the problems are when it is inappropriately used. The same applies to other forms of automation too - but LLMs are really hyped up right now. Probably it will go through the normal hype cycle where there'll be a crash, and then a plateau where LLMs are used to drive productivity but expectations of their capability are more aligned to reality.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#34
Amazon is going down. 20 years ago they had excellent customer service, now they are violating EU laws and cheat the gmp developers out of a CPU replacement:

https://gmplib.org/

Granlund's gcc optimizations probably save Amazon millions in electricity each year. But evidently they don't care about real programmers.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#35
>This shift from writing to reading code can make engineers feel as if they are bystanders in their own jobs. The Amazon engineers said that managers have encouraged them to use A.I. to help write one-page memos proposing a solution to a software problem and that the artificial intelligence can now generate a rough draft from scattered thoughts.

This feels like we are forcing people who rather look at code to start talking in plain language, which not every dev likes or is proficient in.

Devs won’t be replaced by AI. Devs will be replaced by people that can (and want to) speak to LLMs.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#36
> Companies seem to be persuaded that, like assembly lines of old, A.I. can increase productivity. A recent paper by researchers at Microsoft and three universities found that programmers’ use of an A.I. coding assistant called Copilot, which proposes snippets of code that they can accept or reject, increased a key measure of output more than 25 percent.

> The engineers said that the company had raised output goals and had become less forgiving about deadlines.

There are two issues this article brings to mind:

1. Feels like we are back when lines of code was a measure of productivity.

2. We’ve heard this tune before, and the problem we have now is that you don’t understand what you didn’t write. Software development is in large part about understanding the system from the highest level to its smallest details, and this takes away a key part of how our world works, in favor of a “cattle not pets” view of code.

Now, if you don’t expect your programmers to have an understanding of the system they built, and you treat code as disposable, then you’ll center around a world where folks aren’t trained to learn a system, and I don’t see that as a world that is compatible with increased reliance on A.I.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#37
post #10

About 8 or 9 years ago, I talked to a friend who started their first software engineering job. They talked about their job as taking tickets from the JIRA board, completing the change, and putting the tickets back. They were expected to complete 2-3 tickets per day. They didn't enjoy the job, needless to say. I found this ultra-depressing, and far from what coding was for me - a creative role with great creativity an…

> They were expected to complete 2-3 tickets per day.

Based on my experience with sprint teams, breaking things down into just a couple hours of work per ticket implies that someone else is doing an enormous amount of prep work to create a dozen tickets per feature. I agree that your friend is performing the work of a development system. I've heard this called "programming in Developer" as opposed to whatever language the developer is using.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#38
Feels like this could be part of a broader shift towards dis-empowering knowledge workers.

The cog in machine effect has always been there in the corporate world, but somehow it feels like the technique has been refined in the last couple of years.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it poetic justice? Were we advocating for automation?

You were writing all the code for automation.

This is the message between the lines of much of the anti-dev schadenfreude, but actually spelling it out makes it obvious: it's not true.

Only a minority of dev jobs are automating people out of work. There are entirely new industries like game dev that can't exist without it.

Software development has gained such a political whipping-boy status, you'd be forgiven for forgetting it's been the route to the middle classes for a lot of people who would otherwise be too common, weird or foreign.

Re: At Amazon, some coders say their jobs have begun to resemble warehouse work

#40
post #15

Is it really that LLM-based tools make developers so much more productive or rather that organizations have found out they can do with less -- and less privileged -- developers? What I don't really see, especially not big tech-internally, are stories of teams that have become amazingly more productive. For now it feels we get some minor productivity improvements that probably do not off-set the invest and are barely…

A lot of it is perception. Writing software was long considered somewhat difficult and that it required smart people to do so. AI changes this perception and coding starts to be perceived as a low level task that anyone can do easily with augmentation from AI tools. I certainly agree that writing software is turning more into a factory job and is less intellectually rewarding now.

It's been like this for decades.
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