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A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

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Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#151

Post by jballanc »

thebooktocome wrote: post #98
jballanc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: Have you ever looked at a plot of people for/against mariage rights for gays vs age? I suspect that the clear divergence does exist, but may not mean what you think it means... Second: I worked on OS X. In fact, I worked on Snow Leopard, and the start of Lion. What's interesting about that, is that Snow Leopard was the last version of OS X developed according to the "Cathedral" model. Also, while the Snow Leop…

According to phkamp, iOS is a cathedral kind of project. I was hoping someone would bring up OS X and how horrible its cathedral-born API became around 10.5, but I was born in '85 and therefore have no right to speak in this thread.

While Apple would certainly like you to believe that the image of iOS sprang, fully-formed, from the mind of Steve Jobs like some sort of medieval cathedral, the reality is anything but. In fact, much of Apple's success is due to the extent to which it functions like a confederation of very well funded startups. Cupertino is very much a bazaar, wherein a shopper with very refined tastes (Jobs, for example) can pick and choose the finest wares.

This article concludes that quality only happens if someone takes responsibility for it. Yes. You'll find no argument on that point from me. But cathedral's are not (edit: should say "not only") about one person taking responsibility for quality. They are about a priori design.

Quality control can happen ex post facto but creativity, once strangled, dies.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#152

Post by recoiledsnake »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #133
dasil003 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority have never known an Apple product that worked any other way.

?

I think he's referring to the OS X users that started out with the iPhone, iPod or the iPad as their first Apple device and then bought a Mac. (Not that I agree with the argument).

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#153

Post by phkamp »

LaGrange wrote: post #144
phkamp wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows and Office are actually not examples of cathedrals, because the architectural focus of Microsoft was not on software but on a near-monopoly market. You diagnosis of its qualities are spot on. "ad hominem" means to "attack the man", ie: I single identified man, saying some generalities about identifiable groups is not "ad hominem". And yes, I am a grump old man, and a surprisingly cheerful one at that.

Not a cathedral because it was not on a software but a near-monopoly market? I love taking metaphors too far, so I'll just notice that "near-monopoly" is what cathedrals are all about.

Try reading again ?

Microsoft didn't architect their software as software, they shaped it as tools of monopoly enforcement.

There are numerous accounts from people involved about how marketing decisions relating to cutting of 3rd parties or trying to bludgon somebody into submission caused them to cripple their own software and its architecture.

See the evidence in the M$/Novell case for ironclad evidence of this.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#154

Post by MatthewPhillips »

randallsquared wrote: post #150
MatthewPhillips wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority wanted to have scrolling inverted?

No, the majority wanted to stop it from continuing to be inverted, as it has been for decades. If you do a significant percentage of your computing on a touchscreen, having the touchpad work the same way is really, really nice. After a few days of Lion, I switched all my other machines to do scrolling the same way. Now that I'm moving to Linux instead of Mountain Lion, I was happy to note that I can swap the up and d…

Have any actual data on that (to be clear, data that says that people didn't like / wanted to change the way that computer scrolling has worked for the last 25 years)?

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#155

Post by lifeisstillgood »

jballanc wrote: post #129
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, but I would like to come in on that first comment. I think I understand the point you are making (if you grew up in a time of cathedrals you will rate them highly) but it can be taken as an ad hominem attack - one I am sure you did not intend, and would be beneath the HN quality level (its a Cathedral to debate round here)

Not intended as an ad hominem as much as a reductio ad absurdum . It is frequently true that the views held by those older are also more likely to be correct, but it is not guaranteed. This is especially true when the views relate to social norms, views on which few people change as they get older. Cathedral vs Bazaar is probably as close to an argument of social norms as the software world gets...

My reading of PHK here is that Cathedrals often lead to better systems than the anarchy-bazaar that he feels has come to be most of the OSS world.

I think bazaar's like the Turkish one referenced above (with guilds and standards of quality) are the best of all worlds. but to get there, a guild needs a strong, opinionated leader. Torvalds perhaps. (PHK seems to fit the bill too :-)

So, what I suggest is the issue here, is too many people trying to build a cathedral in a bazaar - they want everyone to build it their way but cannot persuade enough others to follow them. As such the bazaar is full of many half-finished carpets instead of less, perfect carpets made by engaged teams.

Software needs many talented people, working together, mentoring new ones in "their way". A bazaar is great for getting different talented people to find each other and choose between many different projects. A Cathedral is great for encouraging apprenticeships, the promulgation of culture and so on.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#156

Post by MatthewPhillips »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #152
MatthewPhillips wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

?

I think he's referring to the OS X users that started out with the iPhone, iPod or the iPad as their first Apple device and then bought a Mac. (Not that I agree with the argument).

I know, but if he's speaking to expectations, the brand of computer isn't relevant.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#157

Post by recoiledsnake »

toyg wrote: post #110
phkamp wrote: post #58

OK, I'll make a couple of general observations here. First: It would be a big help for this discussion, if we could have the informal convention that people who were employed in an IT job before 1990 marked their post. I think it would show a quite clear divergence of attitude. Second: It's very obivious, that a lot of you have never been anywhere near the kind of software project posited in the "cathedral" meme, ins…

Pretty much all your arguments about the Cathedral model being superior fail in the face of the most common cathedrals known to man: Microsoft Windows and Office. Their inscrutable beauty is buried under tons of libraries nobody will ever touch for fear of breaking 20 years of development efforts, exactly like what happens in the Unix world. Their move to the 64-bit world was painfully slower than what their fellow m…

>Pretty much all your arguments about the Cathedral model being superior fail in the face of the most common cathedrals known to man: Microsoft Windows and Office.

It's been twelve long years that OpenOffice moved from the cathedral model to the bazaar model. And it still suffers from the same criticisms you level against Office and more.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#158

Post by Munksgaard »

chwahoo wrote: post #115
DanBC wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does it matter who you are? I've tried to respond to what you wrote. Because you claim he's attacking open source software, and you said that maybe he thinks MS is the standard bearer of his cause. The (easy to find) facts are that he has committed a lot of code to open source and has been involved in freeBSD for many years. These are not small trivial bits of code used by a few people or for insignificant reas…

If the author's open-source credentials are part of his argument, then he needs to make them part of the story he tells in his article. He shouldn't assume that people will connect the dots (he doesn't have the name recognition of a Torvalds or Stallman). Further, even with the context, I don't think the dots add up to enough of a picture to understand what he's arguing for/against. To make a convincing argument, he…

In addition to what chrisaycock said, phks writings are typically very "lacking" and assumes a certain knowledge about whatever he has chosen to write about. He writes interesting stuff, a lot is implied and/or not very sufficiently explained.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#159

Post by doktrin »

thebooktocome wrote: post #98
jballanc wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First: Have you ever looked at a plot of people for/against mariage rights for gays vs age? I suspect that the clear divergence does exist, but may not mean what you think it means... Second: I worked on OS X. In fact, I worked on Snow Leopard, and the start of Lion. What's interesting about that, is that Snow Leopard was the last version of OS X developed according to the "Cathedral" model. Also, while the Snow Leop…

According to phkamp, iOS is a cathedral kind of project. I was hoping someone would bring up OS X and how horrible its cathedral-born API became around 10.5, but I was born in '85 and therefore have no right to speak in this thread.

According to phkamp, iOS is a cathedral kind of project.

This is true. The OP has made several somewhat-arbitrary and vague assertions about what may or may not constitute a "Cathedral", on top of lambasting others for not agreeing with his definition ("Read Brooks Book")

Excerpts from the HN discussion :

"Windows and Office are actually not examples of cathedrals, because the architectural focus of Microsoft was not on software but on a near-monopoly market." -phkamp

"...iOS is very much a Cathedral and has a designer and architect who cares and who is in control." -phkamp

Does Apple not care about achieving market dominance? Did no version of Windows or Office have a lead architect who "cared"?

Frankly, the entire concept of a "Cathedral" - rigidly defined as it appears to be here - is a little nebulous and hand-wavy.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#160

Post by phkamp »

Munksgaard wrote: post #158
chwahoo wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the author's open-source credentials are part of his argument, then he needs to make them part of the story he tells in his article. He shouldn't assume that people will connect the dots (he doesn't have the name recognition of a Torvalds or Stallman). Further, even with the context, I don't think the dots add up to enough of a picture to understand what he's arguing for/against. To make a convincing argument, he…

In addition to what chrisaycock said, phks writings are typically very "lacking" and assumes a certain knowledge about whatever he has chosen to write about. He writes interesting stuff, a lot is implied and/or not very sufficiently explained.

Or maybe, just maybe I don't write for the lowest common denominator, but for people who can think for themselves.
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