Earlier quoted context omitted.
... but evolution will also quite happily run you over a cliff which you have been avoided if intelligence were applied. Not to mention the fact that the bazaar is never going to put a man on the moon. And yes, I wrote that piece.
Except that evolution did put a man on the moon...unless you are one of those who don't believe humans are the result of 3 billion years of evolution? What you have to consider is that individual cells evolved, until they created a whole greater than themselves. No individual cell was in control of that first step Armstrong took onto the moon. Likewise, what we end up creating from so much "bazaar" development will a…
A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
81–90 of 353 posts
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#82Architects don't build cathedrals anymore, either. Neither do most software architects. Yet, look what they have built: an incredibly diverse collection of structures of all shapes and sizes, all working together to form an imperfect yet efficient system. Surely its success is due in part to its flexibility and imperfection, and the fact that they are no longer over-engineered and inflexible behemoths made from stone…
So you don't count the iOS and Android OS'es as cathedrals ? Have you never wondered about their surprisingly coherent APIs and wondered why that was so different from, say, UNIX ? See my other comment about knowing what a cathedral is to begin with.
I guess you're saying that there's no reason UNIX should be different—that it has somehow become a disorganized mess of libraries and code re-use, and that it is broken.
I don't see this. Android and iOS are like brand new cities; Dubai and Abu Dhabi. UNIX is Paris. Perhaps you can make some updates to the city infrastructure, but in the end the streets are still cobblestone underneath, designed for horse carts and not cars. But you have the Notre Dame at the center (ironically, a cathedral), the architecture, tons of history, you have a thriving culture and countless people working and playing in this city every single day with great success. You can complain about it all you want, but there is a reason that people are fundamentally attracted to it.
I think you're right about a lot of things, but if you propose rebuilding Paris, well, you may have some opposition. I think you might want to build a new city, rather than trying to build over very old history with some ideal of the cathedral you think it should have been. And to use your examples again, that strategy has been very successful for Android and iOS.
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#83OK, I'll make a couple of general observations here. First: It would be a big help for this discussion, if we could have the informal convention that people who were employed in an IT job before 1990 marked their post. I think it would show a quite clear divergence of attitude. Second: It's very obivious, that a lot of you have never been anywhere near the kind of software project posited in the "cathedral" meme, ins…
Why don't you talk about a few current "Cathedrals" and how they're different from "Bazaars", that might help the discussion too. The only example that jumps out at me is the original Unix, and I think you'll agree that comparing software from 30 years ago that does vastly less than ... pretty much anything out there these days is not an entirely fair, nor useful comparison.
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#84You'll notice that Windows development follows a model based on at least the principles that code isn't cheap and you are accountable to a customer. Even Freeware is developed with a mentality that ensures the shipped application will work as well as it can without the customer needing to do anything. Duplicated code becomes a requirement (when you can find code to duplicate) and dependencies are non-existent.
The idea that you have go get some other product and install it to make a Windows app work would be absurd to a user. Yet in the FOSS world, it's absurd not to assume this. There's also some expectation of payment from one of these users. Could it not be that the quality and usability of FOSS could benefit from more commerce?
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you don't count the iOS and Android OS'es as cathedrals ? Have you never wondered about their surprisingly coherent APIs and wondered why that was so different from, say, UNIX ? See my other comment about knowing what a cathedral is to begin with.
Fair, but I would describe them more as well-engineered skyscrapers. Or even simply good city planning. They're large structures designed around the idea of flexibility and growth from the outside. Ironically, both of these described platforms have orders of magnitude more functionality in their 'bazaar' app-stores than the foundation itself. The foundation enables the market to work, but in itself it is simply a ver…
Read Brooks book.
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#86The odd part about this “get off my lawn” article is that PHK has already shown how to fix the problem: Varnish is both a very good tool and one which has gotten attention and compliments for rejecting obsolete convention (e.g. relying on the VM, requiring a C compiler to be installed on a server, etc.). I would love to see autoconf massively simplified or outright avoided for most projects and the best way to do tha…
Debian contains tons of accumulated hacks that I wish would be rejected.
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#87It seems like FOSS and Unix-related software development was never held accountable to customers so it never made uniformity - or even reliability - a requirement. If something doesn't work, it's not my fault! It's one of the thousands of other products I depend upon that aren't shipped with an operating system that's to blame. It worked for me is the cry of the guilty developer. You'll notice that Windows developmen…
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fair, but I would describe them more as well-engineered skyscrapers. Or even simply good city planning. They're large structures designed around the idea of flexibility and growth from the outside. Ironically, both of these described platforms have orders of magnitude more functionality in their 'bazaar' app-stores than the foundation itself. The foundation enables the market to work, but in itself it is simply a ver…
And now you are starting to see what is meant by "cathedral": Not a place of religious worship, but a construct with a coherent vision. Read Brooks book.
Will do, thanks for the thought-provoking article.
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#89Thirteen years ago, Eric Raymond's book The Cathedral and the Bazaar (O'Reilly Media, 2001) Off by two? Seriously, though, how do you get 13 out of that (unless calculating from when the author conceivably began working on the book per se)? I'm starting to read the article; I found mildly disconcerting that the first sentence appears to make a mis-statement, but I don't expect that to foreshadow the meat of the messa…
Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar
#90OK, I'll make a couple of general observations here. First: It would be a big help for this discussion, if we could have the informal convention that people who were employed in an IT job before 1990 marked their post. I think it would show a quite clear divergence of attitude. Second: It's very obivious, that a lot of you have never been anywhere near the kind of software project posited in the "cathedral" meme, ins…
Why don't you talk about a few current "Cathedrals" and how they're different from "Bazaars", that might help the discussion too. The only example that jumps out at me is the original Unix, and I think you'll agree that comparing software from 30 years ago that does vastly less than ... pretty much anything out there these days is not an entirely fair, nor useful comparison.
Android is the most original-UNIX-like in it's development but I imagine you could extend it to systems in which large portions of source are available (since that is the kind of project C&B discussed) such as iOS and perhaps Java. Google Chrome. vBulletin. The Pine MUA. The ssh.com RFC 4253 implementation. Various parts of RHEL. And probably numerous "Free" programs that end up following the Cathedral model merely due to the culture of their maintainers.