A Generation Lost in the Bazaar • Hacker News Board

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#31

Post by billswift » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:31 PM UTC

phkamp wrote: post #24

chwahoo wrote: post #15

This article reads like an old timer feeling left behind by the current rate of progress who thinks that the problem is really that the rest of the world is doing it all wrong. He's probably right that lots of software could be designed better, but I think he's wrong that that's of paramount importance. We need lots of software these days and we simply don't have the resources to built it to Kamp's standards. Also, w…

I wonder if you bothered to check who wrote that article, before you started speculating about things you could have found out with a few google searches ? You seem to assume that cathedrals are "slow-moving, centralized, big up-front" designs, where did you get that idea ? Ever looked into how USA put a man on the moon ? Maybe you should. Also: Read Brooks book, if you can.

Your essay was unbalanced, yes open source sucks in the way you complained about, but Microsoft sucks even worse in some ways (if not quite as badly in others). Complaining about something in isolation is easy; everything sucks compared to perfection. But how is it compared to the real alternatives.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#32

Post by phkamp » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:32 PM UTC

tjr wrote: post #28

chwahoo wrote: post #15

This article reads like an old timer feeling left behind by the current rate of progress who thinks that the problem is really that the rest of the world is doing it all wrong. He's probably right that lots of software could be designed better, but I think he's wrong that that's of paramount importance. We need lots of software these days and we simply don't have the resources to built it to Kamp's standards. Also, w…

Some software is extensively designed up front, like embedded avionics programs. The resources are made available because folks like the FAA demand it. Why don't we employ rigorous software engineering principles to, say, iOS games? It would be a waste. It could be done, but in practice, people just don't care as much if a game on their phone crashes as they do if an airplane they're riding in crashes. There's a wide…

You are not even in the same zip code as the point I'm trying to make, which, I guess, sort of makes my point.

Nobody says you have to write iOS games using the same methodology as avionics, what somebody is trying to say is that random walk will only get you so far...

iOS is a pretty bad example btw, because iOS is very much a Cathedral and has a designer and architect who cares and who is in control.

That's precisely why don't need to use autoconf to compile stuff for iOS.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#33

Post by __alexs » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:33 PM UTC

phkamp wrote: post #25

bguthrie wrote: post #22

This article confused and dismayed me. Since 2001, we've started in on the XP/Agile movement, which, think what you will of it, test-drives and version-controls relentlessly, and fosters a constant dialog about what quality is and how to achieve it. Furthermore, some marvelous tools have been written in the last decade; I can hardly see how the author can complain about version-control systems, as Git and Mercurial--…

You mean: "In 2001 we reinvented XP/Agile because we couldn't be bothered to read the old literature to see if somebody else had done something like that before" ?

I don't think that's quite fair on Fowler. C&B was published only 2 years before his book on XP, The Toyota Way was published in 2001 as well.

Really many of ideas which we've come to associate with "Agile"-like methods only really started to become codified about the end of the 1980's in more traditional manufacturing. I don't think it's too surprising that it's taken the software industry another 10 years for this stuff to become mainstream.

Also from your other comment above...

> Ever looked into how USA put a man on the moon ?

I'm sure FreeBSD would be a lot better if you gave it $25 billion USD over 11 years as well.

It takes more than just good will and intelligent people to produce high quality results.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#34

Post by phkamp » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

__alexs wrote: post #5

lmm wrote: post #2

Autoconf is an easy target for these kind of rants, but you know what? It does its job, and it does it very well. The ratio of autoconf to non-autoconf programs on my system is probably 10:1, but the ratio of build problems is something like 1:20. If anyone ever managed to write a genuinely better build system, the bazaar would let it rise to the top; the gradual rise of e.g. cmake is testament to this. Trying to imp…

Autoconf is certainly extremely functional but it is not Good. The irony in all of this of course is that autoconf was created to solve the portability issues between platforms that came from the Cathedral model.

No, autoconf happened because UNIX abandonned the cathedral model and went bazaar.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#35

Post by phkamp » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

billswift wrote: post #31

phkamp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you bothered to check who wrote that article, before you started speculating about things you could have found out with a few google searches ? You seem to assume that cathedrals are "slow-moving, centralized, big up-front" designs, where did you get that idea ? Ever looked into how USA put a man on the moon ? Maybe you should. Also: Read Brooks book, if you can.

Your essay was unbalanced, yes open source sucks in the way you complained about, but Microsoft sucks even worse in some ways (if not quite as badly in others). Complaining about something in isolation is easy; everything sucks compared to perfection. But how is it compared to the real alternatives.

Who said anything about Microsoft ?

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#36

Post by lubutu » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:35 PM UTC

billswift wrote: post #31

phkamp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if you bothered to check who wrote that article, before you started speculating about things you could have found out with a few google searches ? You seem to assume that cathedrals are "slow-moving, centralized, big up-front" designs, where did you get that idea ? Ever looked into how USA put a man on the moon ? Maybe you should. Also: Read Brooks book, if you can.

Your essay was unbalanced, yes open source sucks in the way you complained about, but Microsoft sucks even worse in some ways (if not quite as badly in others). Complaining about something in isolation is easy; everything sucks compared to perfection. But how is it compared to the real alternatives.

It amazes me that the argument against this is by attacking some "standard-bearer of his cause." Let's not ask how it is compared to existing alternatives, or to 'perfection', but rather the potential alternatives. Your argument is akin to "stop talking about 'engines'; horse-drawn carriages might suck, but so does walking."

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#37

Post by davidw » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:36 PM UTC

phkamp wrote: post #32

tjr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some software is extensively designed up front, like embedded avionics programs. The resources are made available because folks like the FAA demand it. Why don't we employ rigorous software engineering principles to, say, iOS games? It would be a waste. It could be done, but in practice, people just don't care as much if a game on their phone crashes as they do if an airplane they're riding in crashes. There's a wide…

You are not even in the same zip code as the point I'm trying to make, which, I guess, sort of makes my point. Nobody says you have to write iOS games using the same methodology as avionics, what somebody is trying to say is that random walk will only get you so far... iOS is a pretty bad example btw, because iOS is very much a Cathedral and has a designer and architect who cares and who is in control. That's precise…

> That's precisely why don't need to use autoconf to compile stuff for iOS.

You don't need it to compile stuff for one specific version of Debian with packages X, Y and Z installed, either. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#38

Post by phkamp » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:36 PM UTC

__alexs wrote: post #33

phkamp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean: "In 2001 we reinvented XP/Agile because we couldn't be bothered to read the old literature to see if somebody else had done something like that before" ?

I don't think that's quite fair on Fowler. C&B was published only 2 years before his book on XP, The Toyota Way was published in 2001 as well. Really many of ideas which we've come to associate with "Agile"-like methods only really started to become codified about the end of the 1980's in more traditional manufacturing. I don't think it's too surprising that it's taken the software industry another 10 years for this…

I think it's perfectly fair.

UNIX was originally written as pair-programming.

Brooks refers to agile in The Mythical Man-Month (he didn't invent it, check his references)

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#39

Post by tjr » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:39 PM UTC

phkamp wrote: post #32

tjr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some software is extensively designed up front, like embedded avionics programs. The resources are made available because folks like the FAA demand it. Why don't we employ rigorous software engineering principles to, say, iOS games? It would be a waste. It could be done, but in practice, people just don't care as much if a game on their phone crashes as they do if an airplane they're riding in crashes. There's a wide…

You are not even in the same zip code as the point I'm trying to make, which, I guess, sort of makes my point. Nobody says you have to write iOS games using the same methodology as avionics, what somebody is trying to say is that random walk will only get you so far... iOS is a pretty bad example btw, because iOS is very much a Cathedral and has a designer and architect who cares and who is in control. That's precise…

I almost posted that at the top-level of this thread, but it was your comment, not the original article, that prompted the train of thought behind my comment. I wasn't arguing with you.

Re: A Generation Lost in the Bazaar

#40

Post by tedunangst » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 1:41 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #2

Autoconf is an easy target for these kind of rants, but you know what? It does its job, and it does it very well. The ratio of autoconf to non-autoconf programs on my system is probably 10:1, but the ratio of build problems is something like 1:20. If anyone ever managed to write a genuinely better build system, the bazaar would let it rise to the top; the gradual rise of e.g. cmake is testament to this. Trying to imp…

When OpenBSD replaced GNU libtool with a home grown perl version, it was so much faster I believe it literally cut days off machine time off a full ports build. For smaller packages, with tiny C files, running libtool.sh takes longer than running the compiler does. The majority of build time for some of those packages is still running configure, testing for things like , which the package provides no workaround when missing. The OpenBSD project alone has spent years of machine time to running configure and libtool.

As for doing its job well, the failure mode of configure "you can't build this" is abysmal. Just give me a fucking Makefile, I'll fix it myself. I love packages that come with Makefiles that don't work. I pop "-I/usr/local/include" into CFLAGS, run make again, and boom. Done. Trying to do the same with configure? Forget about it. --with-include-dir or whatever doesn't work, because it's really running some bogus test in the background which expects /bin/bash to exist and so on and so forth.