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Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

nytimes.com

411–420 of 1001 posts

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#411
post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

I think its a few reasons/things here...(some already noted in some way by others) * Trump does not care or maybe lacks the understanding of the concept of a network and influence with entities outside the U.s. * Trump probably figures that he can use this as sort of leverage against negotiations with non-U.s. entities...but using a blunt instrument instead of nuance, or backchannels. * Trump is foolishly following t…

Most of Trump's behavior makes sense when you realize his dealmaking strategy is bullying:

1. Exert maximun possible pressure

2. Strike the best deal possible

Reasons only matter in the sense of selecting initial targets. Once into dealmaking, it's anything and everything thrown at an opponent.

You can see this in terms of what stops him: equal counterpressure (China) or consequences (US stocks and treasuries being dumped)

Similarly, once a deal is struck, reasons again don't matter.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#412
post #20

Don’t miss this bit. Currently enrolled students are going to need to find a new university. > In a news release, the Department of Homeland Security sent a stark message to Harvard’s international students: “This means Harvard can no longer enroll foreign students, and existing foreign students must transfer or lose their legal status.”

Which isn’t at all how PhD programs work. This is a supreme dick move to students are going to be forced to leave with an AbD for no other reason than Trumps ego. This is going to burn the children of the most powerful families across the world. Monarchies, dictators, owners of international conglomerates, etc all send their kids to Harvard. Destroying their children’s education out of a fit of malice is going to hau…

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Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#413
post #171
post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

Isn't a lot of the appeal of Trump that he does not owe anything to these power networks? Others in the Republican party may do so, but Trump has the Republican party well under control, and so doesn't have to listen to anyone. Trump has drained the previous swamp and erected a new one, and Harvard never got an invitation.

The previous swamp hasn’t gone anywhere, your just not noticing it due to the enormous size of the new one.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#414
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is just shockingly cynical. We're facing a situation where a sitting government feels empowered to go to war against an elite university solely over the speech it doesn't like to hear on its campus. And your response is to dismiss it all as a kerfuffle over "bad lobbying" and "inter-elite fratricide"? Really? Surely there are existing institutions of some form or another you'd like to see not made enemies of the…

Fighting antisemitism is clearly not the true motive behind this ideological "war", just as denazification was clearly not the motive for Russia's invasion of Ukraine; it's just a convenient excuse to target institutions such as Harvard that are unwilling to distance themselves from the progressive left.

Exactly this. It's nothing but an attempt to punish them for not kissing the ring. If only we had another arm of government able to hold this clearly corrupt behavior to account....

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#415
post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

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You are attributing too much power to the Israeli. Trump signed a ceasefire with Houthi last week that doesn't protects Israel: that is, the US stops bombing them as long as they don't attack US ships, and attacks against Israel aren't a casus belli for the US anymore.

The Republican party is strongly favorable to Israel, but since Netanyahou pissed Trump, they don't get special treatment anymore, that's what happen when your foreign policy depends on the mood of a single guy. The old alliance and ideological alignment can mean nothing overnight just because the supreme leader said so.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#417
post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

This is an explanation from my department chair which I've expanded. In the context of a university, there are four main power groups - the alumni, the faculty, the students, and the board of trustees. (Within each group of course are subfactions.) The actual power balance between these groups is never precisely certain (it's an unobservable "latent variable"). Whenever large events happen that involve the university, we get observations that allow us to estimate the latent variable better.

In the case of Harvard, I think the current observations are most consistent with the following: the Board of Trustees, faculty, and students have currently aligned in their goals - which we might summarize as (1) maintaining independence from the government and (2) the ability to hold/teach specific "controversial" viewpoints (benefits of diversity, anti-colonialism, potentially other "progressive" concepts). I suspect that within the factions the relative importance of these two goals is not balanced. The fact that the coalition has survived much longer than, e.g., Columbia, is somewhat surprising.

My suspicion is that the answer to your question is that the persistent "smacking around" is only in part due to the external factors other replies have mentioned. I think a major piece of the situation can be explained by a change in the power dynamic with the alumni. Under normal circumstances, the faculty presumably hope to maintain long lasting influence over their alumni, which the board of trustees leverage to bring in more money and influence to the university. The current situation suggests that the high-power/high-$$$ portion of the alumni who are in a position to leverage the public conversation about what's going on are not doing it. This implies that the strength of that edge of the power graph is much weaker than it was expected to be. I think it remains to be seen whether this is true. Further observations that would support that would be reduced donations, public complaints, etc. Conversely, increased fundraising and more public support would suggest the opposite.

The key point about the university power network is that USUALLY, the best situation is to avoid situations that actually reveal too much information. Everyone would prefer to believe they have more power than they do. Obviously the alumni are composed of factions, and presumably a large fraction of the potential participants are also members of other organizations with latent power networks and participating in this particular situation would involve expending capital in these other networks with potential reduction in power. Some alumni that have spoken up (i.e., Ackman) are clearly unaligned with the current coalition, and this MAY reflect the fact that the wealthy/powerful group of alumni that have sustained Harvard are really unhappy with the current stances of the university and would like it to shift (return?) to a different set of ideologies. But it's also possible that he represents a minority, and the rest are just nervous about getting involved.

My conclusion from this analysis is that things will persist as they have, with everyone who might be involved hoping that lawsuits will be successful in resolving the situation with the minimum of their involvement. If this approach is unsuccessful, I think we'll end up in a situation where we get a much better observation of the power balance between alumni, faculty, and board (I think the students rarely have as much power as they think they do!).

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. The simple answer is that they don't. Alumni are often in powerful positions, but even they are, that is very different from the school itself exerting influence.

A friend is a big Harvard alum. He says that most of his classmates are very unhappy with the direction of the university. So in his circle the alumni may be cheering this on. Maybe not the extremism but the general idea of telling Harvard that it needs to get back to truth-seeking.

Bill Ackman may be the most visible. Billionaire hedge fund manager. He's a Jew who is horrified by the school's tolerance for pro Hamas protests. He was a big Democrat supporter before that, including for Obama, Booker, and Cuomo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ackman

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#419
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools can create and enforce their own rules how they wish. The United States government is forbidden from creating or enforcing rules on content of speech. It's actually only a 1st Amendment question in one case and not the other. Looks like they tricked ya though! (Technically it's a 1st Amendment question in both cases in that private entities have a 1st Amendment right to create rules for their own camp…

In regards to protest though, the activity they are interested in, that is a right of 'the people to peaceably assemble' per 1A. Non-immigrants are not 'the people' per current interpretation of the constitution. If they were people, they would have all the rights ascribed to 'the people' including right to bear arms. Non immigrants do not have a right to bear arms, thus it cannot logically follow they are [the] peop…

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Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#420
post #10

If they can do this to Harvard, what hope do other universities have?

Seems most universities don't really care as long as the money keeps flowing. They jumped quickly on the DEI bandwagon and they will quickly hop off too.
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