Live data from Hacker News

Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org

551–560 of 814 posts

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#551
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adam Smith already pointed out that a trade deficit is not really interesting, so I do not understand the American obsession about it ;) Also, the often-mentioned US-EU trade deficit is not that big if you count in services. Which I think should be done in the 21st century. Large parts of the US economy are focused on digital high-value services, and they are "exported" worldwide.

In fact, according to US government published numbers, the US runs a goods+services surplus with quite a few countries. FWIW, I’m not sure I believe the official numbers, or at least I don’t believe that they measure anything useful. When a French customer buys an AMD CPU or Nvidia GPU that was made in Taiwan, the physical object may never touch US soil, but a lot of money flows in. Did we export a good, a service, o…

You have to start somewhere though. The alternative, throwing your hands up and saying "this is too complex to track", isn't useful either

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#552
post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's GDP (PPP) is already ~22% higher than the USA's [1]. Arguably, isn't this a better measure of value? PPP measures the real value to the citizens in a nation, and more closely measures actual economic activity. Say a bottle of wine costs $20 in the USA, and in total one bottle is produced and sold for a total of $20 GDP. France makes 10 bottles at $2 each, for a similar GDP of $20. It's cool that the USA manag…

> China's GDP (PPP) is already ~22% higher than the USA's [1]. Arguably, isn't this a better measure of value? PPP measures the real value to the citizens in a nation, and more closely measures actual economic activity. Only if the only things you purchase are exclusively domestic. Turns out, the vast majority of Chinese citizens with any means are interested in foreign products (like most people in the world).

> Turns out, the vast majority of Chinese citizens with any means are interested in foreign products (like most people in the world).

Is there data that backs up this claim? Is this broadly the case? Cause I do know that local brands have been taking over foreign brands recently. Take for example Apple— sales in China plunged 50%, and reports are pointing at Huawei [1], which amongst other things has been making some impressive high-end phones. Tesla is falling to Chinese brands too [2].

Moreover, foreign brand != foreign product. Tesla manufactures in China, as does Apple, Louis Vuitton, etc.

But regardless of specific examples, I'd imagine the vast majority of consumption in China isn't products of foreign origin given its massive trade surplus [3] and just how much of what it imports are materials, rather than finished consumer goods [4].

[1]: https://www.asiafinancial.com/apple-sales-in-china-plunge-50...

[2]: https://carnewschina.com/2025/05/12/teslas-sales-in-china-do...

[3]: https://tradingeconomics.com/china/balance-of-trade

[4]: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/chn?selector343id=Impor...

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we take what you wrote as fact, that does not answer how it is living beyond their means if their means includes "providing mainly a financial service, by managing the dollar".

If you're spending $1.9 trillion per year more than you're earning (projected for 2025), accumulating debt, I think it's fair to say you're living well beyond your means. We're talking about $5600 per inhabitant per year.

I didn't say Americans aren't living beyond their means. Just that on the face of it they aren't living beyond their means due to their currency's status if that status gives them some means to buy more. OP just didn't really provide a rationale as to why it's this currency issue in particular that you can point to to say Americans are living beyond their means.

Lots of countries have a lot of debt, many are in similar boats or worse as USA when you look at various metrics like debt per capita, per gdp, etc. Politicians and their "experts" and economists etc generally insist this is perfectly fine. I also get the feeling they're probably lying about that and many other things, though I don't know enough about the subject to actually know myself.

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the meaning of the phrase "living beyond one's means" doesn't go to the unavoidable fact that circumstances change over time. I will one day become infirm and unable to earn money, that does not mean I'm currently living beyond my means. US dollars might one day cease to be the global reserve currency in which case Americans will not see such benefits associated with that. This is a true statement. That doesn't m…

> I will one day become infirm and unable to earn money, that does not mean I'm currently living beyond my means. That is not the same thing because it's real productivity, labor is the only thing in the world that has any real value. You're exchanging your own labor for other people's labor. The US is exchanging something that has no inherent value (USD) for other people's labor. If I take on all the debt that I can…

> That is not the same thing because it's real productivity, labor is the only thing in the world that has any real value.

Note that I'm strictly discussing this topic using words in the way you'd find them defined in a reputable dictionary or a high school economics book.

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What other system of value are you using here? Bottle caps? Nostalgia? A common proxy is "metric tonnes of steel produced" and "metric tonnes of sulfuric acid produced". For China, these have been going up in-line with their GDP growth, whereas for USA they have flatlined since 1980 despite the increase in manufacturing dollar-value output.

You, of course, can choose these as your units of value. I think it is telling that the rest of the world (particularly the central banks of most countries) have instead chosen USD (well, more specifically US treasuries) as their preferred store of value. Well, at least, for now...

(Not the person you were replying to)

You asked a question, they answered in good faith, and now you've dismissed their answer. I would also point out that you're dismissal is actually about a related, but separate issue - you've suddenly started talking about preferred store of value, when your original question was about how to value production.

I don't think you're arguing in good faith.

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US manufacturing output is double that of China's on a per-capita basis. Only on a dollar value basis. And that's heavily skewed on how an item's value is calculated. When you use $50 of parts (all made in China) to assemble a machine that you sold at $500 , $50 of GDP value is attributed to China while $450 of GDP value is attributed to the US. But who did more "manufacturing"?

> Only on a dollar value basis. Uh, yes. > And that's heavily skewed on how an item's value is calculated. An item's value is calculated according to what it is bought and sold for. That's how value is determined. What would you rather it "skew" towards? > When you use $50 of parts (all made in China) to assemble a machine that you sold at $500 , $50 of GDP value is attributed to China while $450 of GDP value is attr…

The main reason why the American company can do this is because we have borders that allow said company to move goods across them, but prevent the cheap Chinese labor from moving to US. If not for the latter, US would be mostly speaking Mandarin by now and things would be a lot cheaper (and salaries would be a lot lower).

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are always trade offs. I want to live on a farm, but at the same time, I need a relatively quick access to hospitals.

It’s a joke about short sighted farm animals thinking they have it good not seeing the big picture.

You need to add "free" to that joke.

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#558
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In isolation an $8,000 EV looks cheap to us earning a salary in the West, but that is still 1.7x the median household income (so half of all Chinese households have even less money to spend). You're looking at China the wrong way. A better way to view it is as two countries - a developed urban one, tied to a developing, rural one. The latter is currently bigger than the former, so it drives any median wealth metric…

> You're looking at China the wrong way. A better way to view it is as two countries - a developed urban one, tied to a developing, rural one This is how I am looking at China, and this is ALL THE MORE reason that development needs to be spread out much more equally. Urban China isn't that much richer either - median urban household income is CNY 43,000/$6,000 [0] - so on par with Thailand and half that of Malaysia's…

I mostly agree with your points. Social inequality in China is pretty serious, and it’s gonna take a lot of smart policy moves to fix it.

But when we compare China to other countries, we do have to consider some unique factors. The cost of living in China is really low, which means that even if people have similar income levels to places like Thailand, their actual quality of life can be better in some ways. For example, China’s “vegetable basket project” keeps food prices super low across the country. There’s no property tax, firefighting services are free, and rural healthcare is cheap—even if it's not on par with what you'd get in big cities.

That said, the government still needs to do more to boost domestic consumption. The current setup is okay, but it’s still nowhere near the living standards in developed countries.

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#559
post #115

Using a national currency as the de facto global reserve guarantees a trade deficit for that country. No one else can manufacture USD's, so other countries have to acquire them by shaping their economies to supply goods and services demanded by the US. They can then use these earned dollars to transact with other countries, as the US itself insists they do. For the US, this is a simple trade off - gain massive politi…

US doesn't just get political influence. It gets massive amounts of products and services enabling the US residents live well beyond their means. China for example, sends huge number of electronics and all kind of other consumer goods that Chinese produce by sweating in 12 hours shifts in 6 day work weeks in exchange for imaginary numbers. US is definitely not the victim here. There's the risk of this system stop wor…

GDP numbers can be "imaginary" but production numbers are not.

China produces more ships in a year than the US. Generates More Power from Hydro than the whole of Africa.

We could dig more -- but that's just on top of my head. Just like how the US was able to help the allies win WW2 by producing more. It will lose a war against China - because of incredible chinese production

Re: Why does the U.S. always run a trade deficit?

#560
The US has large trade deficits because US leadership uses the lucrative US market as a diplomatic reward. By "leadership" I mean the governing interests of the US, not merely its political class.

The history of this is long, going back to the 19th century, but it became a major diplomatic tool after WW2. As the US sought to secure allies after WW2, it used the incredible wealth of its population as a carrot to gain and ensure compliance of foreign nations. Japan is an obvious example: the recovery and prosperity of Japan was the direct result of deliberately utilizing the US domestic market to create demand for Japanese products. The result is well understood today: Japan thrived as it claimed enormous shares of US electronic, automotive, machine tool, and other sectors of the US economy, and the US secured a strategic ally in the Western pacific, where it has hosted vast military resources for going on 75 years now.

This practice has continued unabated ever since, with Trump being effectively the only significant impediment to have ever emerged. In the 1990s the rationale for MFN status for China was "human rights." China was expected to comport with some notion of human rights and, in turn, China would join the long list of MFN status nations. Again, trade with the US as a diplomatic reward for some US prerogative.

All of this is incentivized by the fact that, aside from approval from the US Senate, the US president has the exclusive prerogative to negotiate trade deals with little to no limits on the terms. The president can do this without passing any bills in Congress, allocating any budgets, winning any court battles, etc. Just negotiate a trade deal, get it approved by the Senate, and shazam: you've changed the world. This is further incentivized by "fast track" authority for the executive, which has been US law since 1975.

Finally, this is all lubricated by the ability to ship vast quantities of cargo from distant locales at low cost. This part really spun up in the 1960's with the US driven standardization of containerization. With this affordance in hand, it became feasible to leverage low cost foreign resources on a large scale, and US captains of industry now had a solution to relieve themselves of high costs in the US: labor costs, regulatory costs, taxes, etc.

With industry and government fully aligned based on independent interests, the trend became the dominant factor of global economics: the world literally runs on US trade deficits.

This has been a one way street for coming up on a hundred years now. It isn't terribly surprising that the pendulum is, if not yet swinging back, at least slowing its present direction. I suspect this part might be hard to understand for those that frequent a site like HN, but the bottomless well of US wealth is basically gone now: much of the population of the US lives a sort of high tech subsistence lifestyle, and it's not difficult to imagine the day when their access to credit will effectively stop. That will happen in parallel with the collapse of government finance in the US, which basically creates a new benchmark for the concept of "clown world" with every passing day.

So there is a hard expiration date coming for all of this.

Post reply on HN