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Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

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Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#151

Post by coolcase »

lolinder wrote: post #43
coolcase wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm torn between Go (nicer runtime) and Node (get to use TS for nicer types!)

For me Go doesn't even come close. It's way too restrictive in what I can and can't do with it. I might feel differently if I worked with a large number of people who I didn't trust, but on small to medium teams composed of very senior people using Go feels like coding with one hand tied behind my back.

I'm talking about the runtime though e.g. concurrency story being the main thing. Speed too. Easier multiform use. Memory footprint.

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#152

Post by rglover »

rafram wrote: post #57

I’m not sure why anyone would want their JS runtime to be their package manager, code formatter, compiler, bundler, web framework, KV store, and cloud provider(!) all at the same time. There’s just no way that they can ship the best product in all of those categories.

It's less likely (and really, depends on the quality of the team and their attention to detail—it's not a "law"), but certainly not a "no way." I'm far more concerned when the official answer to a feature missing is "just use a third-party!" That spoils a lot of tools for me as I immediately read that as "you're on your own, buddy, have fun with your Frankenstein app!"

Over time, unless the team building the thing is entirely tone deaf, I'd expect each individual tool to improve as demanded/necessary. Not only that, but knowing that those tools are being thought about as parts of a whole is deeply comforting (I trust them more than standalone tools as interdependency headaches have likely been solved).

One of the biggest headaches in JS is the tendency for tool builders to just eschew responsibility in favor of sending their community on a goose chase. I commend the Deno folks for taking this approach. We should have more, not less of this attitude in the ecosystem.

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#153

Post by vegadw »

nchmy wrote: post #15
afavour wrote: post #7

I’m sure a bunch of the criticism of Deno is exaggerated. But there’s something fundamental holding me back from investing my time in Deno, or Bun for that matter: they’re both VC funded. The post is a good illustration of why that matters. Very little of it is about Deno itself, instead it’s mostly about the paid-for services Deno Inc offers. They have to prioritise and chase that because their investors want to see…

Could it be that they added node compatibility because people wanted node compatibility. If investors pushed for it as well, then they were just being sensible... I started working with JS/TS just before Deno 2 came out and having, essentially, full node (and TypeScript) compatibility was the primary reason I switched to it. It is all just so simple in comparison to node. But, I agree about the VC funding - it certai…

> "But what other option is there, really?"

Not taking VC funding, having slow organic growth, making a good product, and having pride in your work?

Like, maybe I'm missing something, but why does the end goal always have to be VC funding and acquisition? Is it too much to ask to stay independent and just make something you take pride in and enjoy the craft over many years of a successful, but not self-canibalizing, business?

I dunno man, I just keep seeing every smaller business's end goal to be acquired or turn into a money pumping SASS and it's just depressing. Lets make good things, enjoy delivering a product that people like, and spread good. Keep you and, if you have employees, making a good living and be happy?

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#154

Post by lolinder »

HideousKojima wrote: post #131
lolinder wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It misses the frontend/backend symmetry and has too large a coupling to Microsoft and Windows in my head. I know that these days it's supposed to be cross platform, but every time I've tried to figure out how to install it I get lost in the morass of nearly-identical names for totally different platforms and forget which one I'm supposed to be installing on Linux these days. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong w…

>but every time I've tried to figure out how to install it I get lost in the morass of nearly-identical names for totally different platforms and forget which one I'm supposed to be installing on Linux these days. I realize Microsoft is terrible at naming things, but for .NET/C# it's really not that hard these days. If you want to use the new, cross platform .NET on Linux then just install .NET 8 or 9. New versions c…

Fair enough, I guess I haven't looked in the last few years. The last time that I did a search for .NET there were about five different names that were available and Mono still turned up as the runtime of choice for cross platform (even though I knew it wasn't any more).

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#155

Post by [deleted] »

afavour wrote: post #7

I’m sure a bunch of the criticism of Deno is exaggerated. But there’s something fundamental holding me back from investing my time in Deno, or Bun for that matter: they’re both VC funded. The post is a good illustration of why that matters. Very little of it is about Deno itself, instead it’s mostly about the paid-for services Deno Inc offers. They have to prioritise and chase that because their investors want to see…

[deleted]

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#156

Post by [deleted] »

mattlondon wrote: post #6

I was super-excited about Deno right up until they threw away their earlier commitments and added backwards compatibility for node and all the shite that comes with it. The whole selling point for me was that deno was node without the bullshit and baggage, but they dropped that and basically just turned it into node with built in typescript support and a few other minor things like the permissions. Similar story with…

[deleted]

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#157

Post by [deleted] »

afavour wrote: post #7

I’m sure a bunch of the criticism of Deno is exaggerated. But there’s something fundamental holding me back from investing my time in Deno, or Bun for that matter: they’re both VC funded. The post is a good illustration of why that matters. Very little of it is about Deno itself, instead it’s mostly about the paid-for services Deno Inc offers. They have to prioritise and chase that because their investors want to see…

[deleted]

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#158

Post by IshKebab »

> Most developers weren’t deploying simple stateless functions. They were building full-stack apps: apps that talk to a database

Honestly that seemed really obvious from the start - it's hard to think of many use cases where this isn't the case. Glad they realised anyway.

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#159

Post by nchmy »

vegadw wrote: post #153
nchmy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that they added node compatibility because people wanted node compatibility. If investors pushed for it as well, then they were just being sensible... I started working with JS/TS just before Deno 2 came out and having, essentially, full node (and TypeScript) compatibility was the primary reason I switched to it. It is all just so simple in comparison to node. But, I agree about the VC funding - it certai…

> "But what other option is there, really?" Not taking VC funding, having slow organic growth, making a good product, and having pride in your work? Like, maybe I'm missing something, but why does the end goal always have to be VC funding and acquisition? Is it too much to ask to stay independent and just make something you take pride in and enjoy the craft over many years of a successful, but not self-canibalizing,…

Have you considered that its a much larger job than someone can just bootstrap? Also, Node itself was initially sponsored by a corporate entity, and it lead to considerable problems as well. Now it has backing in many other ways.

Also, are you aware that Deno is being built by literally the creator of Node? This isn't some get rich quick scheme - its something that he deeply wants to see exist. He's also leading the charge against Oracle (a genuine parasite) for the copyright/trademark of Javascript.

Re: Reports of Deno's Demise Have Been Greatly Exaggerated

#160

Post by nchmy »

afavour wrote: post #94
nchmy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be that they added node compatibility because people wanted node compatibility. If investors pushed for it as well, then they were just being sensible... I started working with JS/TS just before Deno 2 came out and having, essentially, full node (and TypeScript) compatibility was the primary reason I switched to it. It is all just so simple in comparison to node. But, I agree about the VC funding - it certai…

> Could it be that they added node compatibility because people wanted node compatibility I imagine that’s exactly the reason! But they outlined their reasoning for a clean break pretty well in their 1.0 announcement post[1] and they haven’t, to my knowledge, posted a follow up “here’s why we were wrong about all that” post. All of which is to say I understand the business reasons why they did it, but to me it compro…

Evidently people didn't sufficiently value the technical promise of Deno and just wanted a (MUCH) better node. But, it also has plenty of new, bold, extra things (a sibling comment elaborates on it much better than I can). I, for one, am quite happy with it.

Given that you still use Node, you might want to try Deno 2 out... It'll likely solve a lot of your headaches.

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