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Remarks on AI from NZ

nealstephenson.substack.com

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Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#91
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> look, i'm sure there are very useful things you can use AI for as a designer to reduce some of the toil work (of which there's a LOT in photoshop et al) Hey, has anyone done an "AI" tool that will take the graphics that I inexpertedly pasted together for printing on a tshirt and make the background transparent nicely ? Magic wands always leave something on that they shouldn't and I don't have the skill or patience…

this has been possible in photoshop using the AI prompt tool (just prompt "remove background") for a while but i haven't used it in long enough to tell you exactly how. depending on how you compiled the source image, i think it should be possible to get at least close to what you intend. edit to add: honestly, if you take the old school approach of treating it like you're just cutting it out of a magazine or somethin…

> you can play around with stroke layer FX with different blending modes

Lost me about there :)

I'm involved in custom printed tshirts only a couple times per year at best and in image editing apart from that about zero times.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but we are already seeing an unprecedented fall in worldwide birth rates, which shows our social fabric itself is being pulled apart for paperclips People choose to have fewer kids as they get richer, it's not about living conditions like so many people like to claim, otherwise poor people wouldn't be having so many children. Even controlling for high living conditions, like in Scandinavia, people still choose to h…

The upper class people in scandinavia are having more kids than the middle class. Housing seems to be a pretty common issue that doesn't prevent people from having kids but if it delays (which it often does) it does the same job of dropping birthrates. I wish people would stop acting like it's only a wealth issue. Like oh if people get more money they no longer want kids....no

You don't need a house to have kids. Poor people manage to have kids with no assets whatsoever and many animals manage to have kids without anything even resembling a house.

It seems much more likely that humans don't have a particular impulse to have children because their instincts were designed for a world without birth control. Having children has become uneconomic, so people stopped. There isn't a natural instinct to raise alarms about that (which is what evolution would tend to do) because historically that just wouldn't have mattered. Both because people were poor and because sex used to imply children in a way it doesn't now.

The house thing is really a red herring. Sure we'd all like to own a house and being wealthy is better than being poor. But in a literal sense - not necessary and for almost all of our evolutionary history people have been reproducing without any wealth at all. The stats actually seem reasonably clear that it is exactly wealth that is blocking the children, despite the excuses that people come up with.

A real boon from chance that is unlikely to last, we're probably lucky to be living in this era before evolution starts kicking in and pushing us back towards overpopulation. Which will happen in a few generations.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#93

> Maybe a useful way to think about what it would be like to coexist in a world that includes intelligences that aren’t human is to consider the fact that we’ve been doing exactly that for long as we’ve existed, because we live among animals. Another analogy that I like is about large institutions / corporations. They are, right now, kind of like AIs. Like Harari says in one of his books, Peugeot co. is an entity tha…

In the general case, the entire species is an example of ASI. We're a collective intelligence. Individually we're pretty stupid, even when we're relatively intelligent. But we have created social systems which persist and amplify individual intelligence to raise collective ability. But this proto-ASI isn't sentient. It's not even particularly sane. It's extremely fragile, with numerous internal conflicts which keep k…

I get the idea, but I'm not quite sold on it. Being intelligent on vast scales is something an individual cannot do, but I'm not sure the "species" is more intelligent than any individual agent. I'm actually a bit more sure of the opposite. It's like LLM agents where just adding more doesn't improve the quality it just introduces more room for bullshit.

To allocate capital on vast scales and make decisions on industry etc, sure, that's a level of intelligence quite beyond any one of us but this feels like cheating the definition of intelligence. It's not the quantity of it that matters, it's the quality. It's like flying I guess. A large bird and a small bird are both flying and the big bird is not doing "more" of it. A group of birds is doing something an individual is incapable of (forming a swarm), sure, but it's not an improvement on flying. It's just something else. That something else can be useful, but I don't particularly like applying that same move to "intelligence".

If the species was so goddamn intelligent it could solve unreasonable IQ tests and it cannot. If we want to solve something really, really hard we use Edward Witten not "the species". That's because there is no "species", there is only a bunch of individuals and if they all score bad, the aggregate will score bad as well. We just coast because a bunch of us are extraordinarily clever.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#94
I completely understand the concerns about AI potentially replacing human thinking, but what if we look at this from a different perspective? Maybe AI isn’t here to replace us, but to push humanity beyond its own limits.

If we look at the history of human progress, the emergence of tools has always made life more convenient, but it also brought new challenges. The printing press, the steam engine, and electricity have all greatly transformed society, but we adapted and thrived. Why can't AI be the same?

The real question isn’t whether AI will replace us, but whether we are ready to use it to do things we couldn’t do or even imagined. Imagine if we didn’t see AI as something that replaces us, but as a tool that allows us to focus on doing what truly matters, leaving the mundane tasks to machines. Isn’t that the ultimate form of progress?

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#95
post #30

> Maybe a useful way to think about what it would be like to coexist in a world that includes intelligences that aren’t human is to consider the fact that we’ve been doing exactly that for long as we’ve existed, because we live among animals. Another analogy that I like is about large institutions / corporations. They are, right now, kind of like AIs. Like Harari says in one of his books, Peugeot co. is an entity tha…

Charles Stross has also made that point about corporations essentially being artificial intelligence entities: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2018/01/dude-yo...

https://omniorthogonal.blogspot.com/2013/02/hostile-ai-youre...

This blog is where I saw the same idea recently, which also links to that post you link.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#96
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upper class people in scandinavia are having more kids than the middle class. Housing seems to be a pretty common issue that doesn't prevent people from having kids but if it delays (which it often does) it does the same job of dropping birthrates. I wish people would stop acting like it's only a wealth issue. Like oh if people get more money they no longer want kids....no

You don't need a house to have kids. Poor people manage to have kids with no assets whatsoever and many animals manage to have kids without anything even resembling a house. It seems much more likely that humans don't have a particular impulse to have children because their instincts were designed for a world without birth control. Having children has become uneconomic, so people stopped. There isn't a natural instin…

>You don't need a house to have kids.

Tell that to a good bunch of people I know who feel secure about their living situation well into their thirties and then of course that 3rd or 4th kid or even 2nd kid they might have felt comfortable having never happens.

What was the historical standard does not matter today in this context. One set of my great grandparents had 8 kids in an abode smaller than mine today. Yet I do not have a single one because where would I put it. A room where i have to strip the walls?

>before evolution starts kicking in and pushing us back towards overpopulation

societal evolution will work quicker than biological evolution ever will. Most of the families with lots of kids here in western europe are conservative muslims.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#97

> Maybe a useful way to think about what it would be like to coexist in a world that includes intelligences that aren’t human is to consider the fact that we’ve been doing exactly that for long as we’ve existed, because we live among animals. Another analogy that I like is about large institutions / corporations. They are, right now, kind of like AIs. Like Harari says in one of his books, Peugeot co. is an entity tha…

Unless you have a truly bastardized definition of ASI then there is undoubtedly nothing close to it on earth. No corporation or military or government comes close to what ASI could be capable of. Any reasonably smart person can identify errors that Militaries, Governments and Corporations make ALL THE TIME. Do you really think a Chimp can identify the strategic errors Humans are making? Because that is where you woul…

> Unless you have a truly bastardized definition of ASI then there is undoubtedly nothing close to it on earth. No corporation or military or government comes close to what ASI could be capable of.

This is glistening with religious fervour. Sure, they could be that powerful. Just like God/Allah/Thor/Superman could, too.

I've no doubt that many rationalist types sincerely care about these issues, and are sincerely worried. At the same time, I think it very likely that some significant number of them are majorly titillated by the biblical pleasure of playing messiah/prophet.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#98
post #94

I completely understand the concerns about AI potentially replacing human thinking, but what if we look at this from a different perspective? Maybe AI isn’t here to replace us, but to push humanity beyond its own limits. If we look at the history of human progress, the emergence of tools has always made life more convenient, but it also brought new challenges. The printing press, the steam engine, and electricity hav…

> I completely understand the concerns about AI potentially replacing human thinking, but what if we look at this from a different perspective? Maybe AI isn’t here to replace us, but to push humanity beyond its own limits.

"Tool AI", yes, at least in theory. You always have to question what we lose, or want to lose. Wolves being domesticated likely meant they lost skills as dogs, one of them being math [1]. Do we want to lose our ability to understand math, or reason about complex tasks?

I think we are already losing the ability to "be bored". Sir Isaac Newton got so bored after retreating to the countryside during the great plague, that he invented optics, calculus, motion and gravity. Most modern people would just watch cat videos. I wonder what else technology has robbed us of.

> If we look at the history of human progress, the emergence of tools has always made life more convenient, but it also brought new challenges. The printing press, the steam engine, and electricity have all greatly transformed society, but we adapted and thrived. Why can't AI be the same?

As long as we are talking about "tool AI", then with the above caveats, maybe. But a more general AI (i.e. AGI) would be unlike anything else we have ever seen. Horses got replaced by cars because cars were better at being horses. What if a few AI generations away we have something better than a human at all tasks?

There was a common trope for a while that if AI took our jobs, we would all kick back and do art. It turns out that the likes of Stable Diffusion are good at that too. The tasks where humans succeed are rapidly diminishing.

A friend many years ago worked for a company doing data processing. It took about a week to learn the tasks, and they soon realised that the entire process could be automated entirely in Excel, taking a week-long task down to a few minutes of number crunching. Worse still, they realised they could automate the entire department out of existence.

> The real question isn’t whether AI will replace us, but whether we are ready to use it to do things we couldn’t do or even imagined. Imagine if we didn’t see AI as something that replaces us, but as a tool that allows us to focus on doing what truly matters, leaving the mundane tasks to machines. Isn’t that the ultimate form of progress?

It could be that AI ends up doing the cool things and we end up doing the mundane tasks. For example, Stable Diffusion could imagine a Vincent van Gogh version of the Mona Lisa quickly, but folding laundry to dry, dusting, etc, remain mundane tasks we humans still do.

Something else to consider is the power imbalance that will be caused. Already to even run these new LLMs you need a decently powered GPU, and nothing short of a super computer and hundreds of thousands of dollars to train. What if future AI remains permanently out of reach of all except those with millions of dollars to spend on compute? You could imagine a future where a majority under class remain forever unable to compete. It could lead to the largest wealth transfer ever seen.

[1] https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/dogs-not-great...

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#99
post #44
post #6

> It hasn’t always been a cakewalk, but we’ve been able to establish a stable position in the ecosystem despite sharing it with all of these different kinds of intelligences. To me, the things that he avoids mentioning in this understatement are pretty important: - "stable position" seems to sweep a lot under the rug when one considers the scope of ecosystem destruction and species/biodiversity loss - whatever "shari…

Yeah totally, I have read that the total biomass of cows and dogs dwarfs that of say lions or elephants Because humans like eating beef, and they like having emotional support from dogs That seems to be true: https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass Livestock make up 62% of the world’s mammal biomass; humans account for 34%; and wild mammals are just 4% https://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/environment/weigh…

That is only mammalian biomass, though.

> And then when say the Europeans got here, those animals were mostly gone ... their "biomass" just collapsed

A lot of species had long been extinct, but the biomass of the remaining ones fell.

Megafauna extinctions always follow 1. the mere arrival of humans and 2. agriculture and growth in human populations.

Places the humans did not reach until later, kept a lot more megafauna for longer - e.g. New Zealand where flourishing species such as moas became extinct within a century or two of human settlement.

Re: Remarks on AI from NZ

#100
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The upper class people in scandinavia are having more kids than the middle class. Housing seems to be a pretty common issue that doesn't prevent people from having kids but if it delays (which it often does) it does the same job of dropping birthrates. I wish people would stop acting like it's only a wealth issue. Like oh if people get more money they no longer want kids....no

You don't need a house to have kids. Poor people manage to have kids with no assets whatsoever and many animals manage to have kids without anything even resembling a house. It seems much more likely that humans don't have a particular impulse to have children because their instincts were designed for a world without birth control. Having children has become uneconomic, so people stopped. There isn't a natural instin…

The conversation started with Low birth rates in advanced economies - and you talk about how poverty is correlated with having kids.
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