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Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

noelberry.ca

51–60 of 257 posts

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#51
post #45

I am always super curious to read such posts. They make me happy for no reason. I do not make games these days, but I love to read about excited and happy people explaining the process they love to do. At the same time I learn new perspectives to understand what is going on in the world of indie games. I keep this (not so) secret wish in the back of my head because I have to work for some money to support my family a…

It’s also refreshing to see what IMO is a very smart selection of technology, when you see so many other people following hype (I’m reminded of the rust gamedev post the other week). C#, SDL3, and some other nice libraries. The thing is, it’s not trivial to get to the point of having enough experience and judgement to know what to choose!

When I start a new game I’m often paralised by the sheer volume of engines out there. When I first started making games all I had was GWBASIC…

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#52
post #18

After having worked on my own (2D) game engine [1] for about 5 years now and having worked on related stuff for paid work I'd like to explain one thing that many people might not find so obvious. Engines are the easy part. The real meat & potatoes is all the tooling and content and asset pipelines around the engine. If you think about it, you need to implement: - importing data from various sources and formats, textu…

It really is a miracle that any video games get shipped at all.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#53
I really miss the days of Flash when I could write lots of mini-engines as needed (e.g. platformers or side scrollers or 2.5D, multiplayer, chat ... all hand coded but reusable) and rely on being able to mix lots of different pipelines for vector art, bitmaps, 3D, audio and UI. There's nothing like that now. I tried to reinvent a few wheels. But at this point... a fairly low level (for script) rendering library like PixiJS is really the best we have. No frameworks, please.

That being said, games are kind of dead. The idea of spending another year or two on another indie game that barely cracks the top 50 for a couple days on an app store is... depressing. Going through the bureaucratic hoops to even get it there and maintain it seems like an exercise in self-torture. I'm kinda back to just making art in my spare time - screen savers, weird web experiences, one-off toys. I think having all my mini-engines in Flash suddenly deleted forever just made me realize how pointless it all was.

Maybe I just spent 20 years getting to be great at the wrong thing. I don't know of a historical parallel of someone spending their life perfecting an art that literally was burned down and blackholed overnight, in quite the same way. I imagine the scribes at Alexandria could at least have gone and scriven somewhere else the following year. So screw it, when I started learning code I was 8 and my brother was a CS major, he gave me his laptop to learn BASIC, and he said "we're just writing on sand." I finally learned that was true.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#54
I like to start all my software projects from scratch. Everyone who are used to working on large software projects know that it's very slow. But starting from scratch is fast! You just implement the bare minimum. But also on later stages of the development when you have abstractions going, then it becomes even faster to implement new features. Working on an enterprise software project and your own engine that you've written from scratch is nothing alike, you can work 1000x faster when you have written the thing yourself and can just cut out and refactor everything you want. This is why I advocate micro service architecture and small teams. Things are much smoother when you do it yourself and from scratch. There are however landmines you have to hit and it will take years of trail and error until you get a feeling for what architecture and abstractions work and which doesn't as well as learning the in and outs of the language and platform you are working on.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#55
I'm an indie game developer with over 10 years of experience. I'm not using Unity or Unreal, but I do have some frameworks that handle things like rendering graphics or playing audio. However, I write all the game logic, data manipulation, and entity management from scratch for each game I make. It seems to be the smoothest option for me, since I have full control over how my games actually operate, but I don't have to reinvent the wheel as far as the low-level architecture goes.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#56
post #26

> I genuinely believe making games without a big "do everything" engine can be easier, more fun, and often less overhead. I am not making a "do everything" game and I do not need 90% of the features these engines provide. At that point, of course, you don't need the engine. Having said that, every time I've really deep-dived into some particular feature of an engine - such as inverse kinematics and animation blending…

> “boy, am I glad I didn't spend several weeks trying to code that up from scratch". If your goal is several decades of a career as an independent developer (like OP), what is an investment of a few weeks for a) understanding a topic deeply and b) having source code that you deeply understand, 100% own, and can reuse across future projects?

It's worth remembering when deciding on rolling out your own engine that this is a multi-layer trade-off as well, I have an anecdote on this.

I have decided a couple years back that my setup will have a hand-rolled physics engine, specifically for the reasons you outlined - having complete understanding over what the code does, how it's structured and how it manages data - but after starting actually-not-so-arduous process of getting it together, it quickly became rather clear that whatever I could implement would pale in comparison to solutions that are robust, field-tested and generally created by professionals.

Physics development in particular is known for wonky nonsense, but there are better and worse heuristics and ways to deal with their shortcomings; a handful of books and Youtube presentations still couldn't prepare me for the actual depth of the problems ahead. What I have now works, is relatively stable in initial demos and I am proud of it, I'm going to tweak and use it in the game I'm working on. It is however pretty obvious already that a lot of time is yet to be spent on massaging jank out of the equations.

I wholeheartedly recommend spending more than several weeks on implementing various subsystems if one either is generally interested in how these things work or silently wishes for that badge of honour (it shines brightly). However, as they say, if you want to make games, do NOT make an engine. Not just because of the time it takes - it doesn't have to take that much (even though it usually does) - but also because along with total control over the medium for expressing your creative vision, it gives you total responsibility for it as well. Sometimes it's better to work in the confines of rules set out by actual engine developers.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even factorio started out on tried-and-tested libraries before moving away from them primarily because of optimization concerns (right?)

Yep, people forget one of the core notions of development which is not to prematurely optimise stuff. Especially something as complex as a game. Keep it super simple. Or that game will never come out.

The full quote is:

> Programmers waste enormous amounts of time thinking about, or worrying about, the speed of noncritical parts of their programs, and these attempts at efficiency actually have a strong negative impact when debugging and maintenance are considered. We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Yet we should not pass up our opportunities in that critical 3%.

Sometimes the best way to tackle that 3% is upfront when you're deciding on your system architecture.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#58
post #9

Many people often say that making an engine from scratch takes too long. But how long does it take to properly learn Unreal or Unity such that you can have an idea and turn it into a game without friction? Presumably, once your engine is finished, you are at that level of expertise instantly, which is a huge time saver. In my opinion, the more experienced of an engineer you are, the more the scales tip in the favor o…

>On the other hand, if you want to make a hyper-realistic, open-world RPG, then rolling your own is probably not a good idea.

I would say its the exact opposite to that. For that genre, its best to roll your own engine, or pick something open-source. The list of problems that i firsthand experienced:

There are lots of features and options in the engines, but they are not all usable at the same time. One feature disables the other. You look at the list of all the nice things the engine can do, but then at some point you figure it can't do (or can't efficiently do) what you absolutely need. All those awesome looking graphics are not practically usable, simply not performant or not compatible to be usable.

There are features that only work in "baked" mode. You "bake" it in the engine editor, and there is no way of changing that at game run time. Unreal is the most limited in this, but Unity is not much better. Some game developers reverse-engineer Unity internal asset formats with a hex-editor, so that they can change feature behavior at runtime. At that point, rolling your own engine makes more sense. One example i saw was a developer reverse engineering the light probe group asset file, so that he could add a new light probe group at runtime.

Engine API's change drastically from version to version. All the code and scripts need refactoring, all the time. You run into a breaking bug, and the only solution is upgrading, but upgrading means breaking your whole codebase.

You need to go trough the engine's abstractions, and bad luck if that can't be done efficiently. An example of this: Unity HDRP applies screen-space ambient occlusion (among other effects). It applies the effect over the whole screen. If there is a third-person view of the character from close or first-person hands/weapons rendered, then even over that. That results in a white halo around the first-person hands/weapon, looks bad. In a custom engine, the solution is simple, apply the full-screen effect before the first-person hands are rendered, then render the hands without the effect. Its a matter of switching the order of a couple of lines of code.

The solution is github and the BSD/MIT/Apache licensed game engines and libraries.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#59
post #26

> I genuinely believe making games without a big "do everything" engine can be easier, more fun, and often less overhead. I am not making a "do everything" game and I do not need 90% of the features these engines provide. At that point, of course, you don't need the engine. Having said that, every time I've really deep-dived into some particular feature of an engine - such as inverse kinematics and animation blending…

> “boy, am I glad I didn't spend several weeks trying to code that up from scratch". If your goal is several decades of a career as an independent developer (like OP), what is an investment of a few weeks for a) understanding a topic deeply and b) having source code that you deeply understand, 100% own, and can reuse across future projects?

I get the argument, and sure, it's viable in certain circumstances. But it's a few weeks _per area / topic_. In my opinion there are enough areas in a typical engine that you could study them for a year and not get through the material. There's graphics, audio, networking, physics, etc. I think the sweetspot is to understand each well enough that you have some insight into what the engine is doing for you, not necessarily to be able to (re-)implement it.

Re: Making video games (without an engine) in 2025

#60
post #37
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “boy, am I glad I didn't spend several weeks trying to code that up from scratch". If your goal is several decades of a career as an independent developer (like OP), what is an investment of a few weeks for a) understanding a topic deeply and b) having source code that you deeply understand, 100% own, and can reuse across future projects?

I'm in the same demographic (less successful than Noel, but I have made my living from game dev for the last 15 years, a lot if from my own indie games). I've used multiple engines throughout that time as they seem to have a lifespan before either tech or business reasons obsolete them (e.g. my first commercial release was made with Flash). My only regret were the times I tried to roll my own, I would have saved a lo…

Face it, you just don't know how to do it and are trying to convince yourself that you don't need to learn how to
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