What this thread keeps surfacing, and so much discussion around this stuff generally right now, from speculation about the next phase of intelligence, the role of pattern, emotion, logic, debates over consciousness, the anthropocentrism of our meaning-making...is that we are the source of reality (and ourselves). Instead of a “final authority” or a simple march from animal to machine, what if everything from mind, ph…
Scott Adams has an imaginative novella on this called God’s Debris[0]. I read it years ago (when it was free). I remember enjoying it and liking the takeaway if not the full premise - “we are the universe trying to understand itself”. [0] - https://web.archive.org/web/20130121195252/http://www.andrew...
Human
271–280 of 282 posts
Re: Human
#272What this thread keeps surfacing, and so much discussion around this stuff generally right now, from speculation about the next phase of intelligence, the role of pattern, emotion, logic, debates over consciousness, the anthropocentrism of our meaning-making...is that we are the source of reality (and ourselves). Instead of a “final authority” or a simple march from animal to machine, what if everything from mind, ph…
this sounds largely like spiritualizing technology without wrestling with its material consequences. There’s something slippery about invoking “awareness” as both subject and substrate without ever pinning down whose awareness, under what conditions, and to what end. "now is your shot at particpating" in what exactly? merely existing? you techno-mysticism types spook the hell out of me.
Re: Human
#273Perhaps I am unimaginative about whatever AGI might be, but it so often feels to me like predictions are more based on sci-fi than observation. The theorized AI is some anthropomorphization of a 1960s mainframe: you tell it what to do and it executes that exactly with precise logic and no understanding of nuance or ambiguity. Maybe it is evil. The SOTA in AI at the moment is very good at nuance and ambiguity but some…
Sci Fi is quite ridiculous when it describes a cold logically machine, and then on the next page describes its malign intentions. Pick a lane.
https://archiveofourown.org/works/649448/chapters/1329953
Feelings, or some other way of understanding the self and what it wants, are apparently required to operate effectively as an agent.
Re: Human
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
AGI could indeed go off the rails, like the Face Dancer villains in Frank Herbert's Dune universe: "You are looking at evil, Miles. Study it carefully.... They have no self-image. Without a sense of self, they go beyond amorality. Nothing they say or do can be trusted. We have never been able to detect an ethical code in them. They are flesh made into automata. Without self, they have nothing to esteem or even doubt.…
I mean, giving them a sense of self and agency just throws the ball back into the terminator court where they can decide we suck and eradicate us.
Re: Human
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And indeed the natural and inevitable progression of this world line is a machine world, Would you mind clarifying your line of reasoning for suggesting this? Second: quoting wikipedia - "The many-worlds interpretation implies that there are many parallel, non-interacting worlds." If the multiple words are non-interacting, how could one world observe a large scale extinction event corresponding to the other world l…
It's the assumption that in our world, a machine civilization is an almost certain end. This might explain the Fermi paradox that we haven't seen other civilization in the universe: each builds an AI that decides to go radio offline for self-preservation. As for MWI, I'm assuming that the world lines may split, or fork in Unix terms. What causes such splits is an open question. The splits cannot be detected with cert…
I'm also curious about this assumption: "It's the assumption that in our world, a machine civilization is an almost certain end"
Let's say machine civilization is an intractable problem, NP complete, requires a million fold difficulty more than the travelling salesman problem - it might not be a good assumption. We are assuming therefore that the compute power will grow enough to solve the required problem. It's also a question too what a machine civilization would look like. Might it decide to just power itself off one day (or accidently?).
The Fermi paradox relies on some assumptions (I'm pulling these from wikipedia):
- Some of these civilizations may have developed interstellar travel, a step that humans are investigating.[12]
- Even at the slow pace of envisioned interstellar travel, the Milky Way galaxy could be completely traversed in a few million years.[13]
- Since many of the Sun-like stars are billions of years older than the Sun, the Earth should have already been visited by extraterrestrial civilizations, or at least their probes.[14]
These assumptions could readily not hold up. Perhaps interstellar travel is actually impossible. Or, it's not feasible. If it takes a million years to travel to the nearest star, let alone one that is inhabited - why do it? We would really have to assume a machine civilization at that point - which leads to another assumption that machines would care and/or be motivated enough to explore.
The last assumption, perhaps Earth was visited by a probe, but just 200 years ago. Even today, we don't detect nearly all asteroids, let alone something that might be relatively small. The assumption that we have not detected a visitation from another species is a pretty big assumption too.
Re: Human
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
Scott Adams has an imaginative novella on this called God’s Debris[0]. I read it years ago (when it was free). I remember enjoying it and liking the takeaway if not the full premise - “we are the universe trying to understand itself”. [0] - https://web.archive.org/web/20130121195252/http://www.andrew...
How did Scott Adams go from this to tirades on twitter?
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
The last episode listed there has the description "Robert sits down with Matt Lieb to discuss Scott Adams's worst novel, God's Debris." so if one really likes the book being discussed, probably best to go into that episode with an open mind.
Re: Human
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
The language of reward mechanism can be translated to language of emotions. Emotions is something humans experience and understand on innate level, they are qualia. If a reward structure is translated to our language we can get a better intuitive understanding. E.g. a direct negative reward associated with undesired states is often called "pain". E.g. if you want robot to avoid bumping into walls you give it a "pain"…
What you've written doesn't change anything to the fact that there's a contradiction in the author's writing. And as ithkuil said in another comment[1] it's not surprising at all that such a contradiction would occur in a work of fiction written by a human, because we are first an foremost emotional beings and we cannot really imagine how would a society of purely rational beings would be. I don't really understand w…
Re: Human
#278Related but an aside - Lately I've really been wondering if Skynet actually is the next evolution. That humans, like all animals before us, are a stepping stone and there is actually no avoiding machine overlords. It happens to literally every existence of life across the universe because the final emergent property of energy gradients 100% leads to pure logic machines. At least Fermi's paradox helps me sleep better…
Seems like a good time for "They're Made Out of Meat": https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think... Aside: I hope our progeny remember us and think well of us.
Re: Human
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
What you've written doesn't change anything to the fact that there's a contradiction in the author's writing. And as ithkuil said in another comment[1] it's not surprising at all that such a contradiction would occur in a work of fiction written by a human, because we are first an foremost emotional beings and we cannot really imagine how would a society of purely rational beings would be. I don't really understand w…
One way to interact with a piece of fiction is to find a way to connect it to things you know or thought of.