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Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com

61–70 of 155 posts

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#61
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The two observers can't disagree on such matters! Why not? If a spaceship fell toward a black hole and, as it approached the event horizon, one observer saw it turn into a horse and the other saw it turn into a cat, that would be very strange indeed, and one would suspect at least one of the observers of being wrong. But if one observer sees it fall through the event horizon and the other observer waits… and waits……

> Why not? Because that's not how relativity works! Two observers can disagree only on the order and relative timing of events, not what the events are or the total number of events. There are far more restrictions than that, but those are sufficient for my point. The whole quantum information loss problem is just this, but dressed up in fancy terminology. It's the problem with black holes that the "number of things"…

> Because that's not how relativity works! Two observers can disagree only on the order and relative timing of events, not what the events are or the total number of events.

No, and this has nothing to do with quantum mechanics or the no-hair theorem or anything particularly fancy.

As a toy example, suppose you have a frame with a (co-moving, but it doesn’t really matter) time coordinate t. A series of events happen at the origin (x=y=z=0 in this frame) at various times t.

There’s another observer in a frame with a time coordinate t'. The frames are related by t' = t - 1/t for tnever actually happens. t=1 doesn’t even come close.

Critically, the t' observer does not observe t=0 or t=1 in some inconsistent manner. There is no disagreement between the observers as to what happens at t>=0. To the contrary, those events are simply not present in the t' observer’s coordinate system!

Note that the transformation above isn’t about when light from an event gets to the t' observer — it’s the actual relativistic transformation between two frames.

The Schwarzchild metric has a nastier transformation than this. If you toss a rock into an isolated black hole from far away, you will see the rock get progressively closer to the event horizon, and you will never see it fall in. But the rock is in trouble: its co-movimg coordinate system ends not long after it crosses the horizon. That latter phenomenon is called the “singularity”, it’s solidly inside the event horizon, and it’s not avoidable by coordinate system trickery. While general relativity does not explain what happens when one encounters the singularity, one might imagine that it’s fatal to the rock the reaches it.

edit: FWIW, you also say:

> The current "pop science" (nearly science fiction) statement is that it is possible to fall into a black hole and there is "nothing special" about the event horizon.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. In a pure GR model of an isolated black hole, as you fall in, you will observe tidal forces. In a smaller black hole, the tidal forces will squash you long before you reach the event horizon. In a large enough black hole, they will not! Your view of the sky would certainly look very, very distorted and delightfully and possibly dangerously blue-shifted, but we’re talking about an isolated black hole. Nothing to see in the sky, and you may well survive your visit to the event horizon. Then, dramatically less than one second later for any credibly sized black hole, you will meet the singularity, and IIRC you should probably expect to be squashed by tidal forces before that. Source: I took the class and did the math. I assume this is what the “pop science” you’re talking about is saying, and it’s not wrong.

P.S. I’ve never tried to calculate how lethal the blue-shifted sky would be. Naively considering just the time transformation, it should be infinitely lethal at the event horizon. But trying to apply intuition based on only part of a relativistic transformation is a great way to reach incorrect conclusions.

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#62
Ok, we all understand the ancient problem and its current manifestation.

But what can be done? Science is not supposed to be the realm of disinformation, but it seems to have no real defenses. People are being paid to lie, no one is being paid to say they are liars, and from the outside scientific dispute looks a lot like politics, so scientists lose credibility by association.

That's a real problem.

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current "pop science" (nearly science fiction) statement is that it is possible to fall into a black hole and there is "nothing special" about the event horizon. How is this not true? From the point of view of whoever is falling, and supposing the black hole is very large

Nobody knows what happens at the event horizon, but we do know from the perspective of an outside observer things about physics 'break'. It makes sense that there's a flip-side to that 'breakage' (on the inside of the surface, or even "only at" the surface) that isn't just normal space as if nothing happened. For example there's no mathematics at all that mankind has ever known where an asymptotic approach towards so…

> For example there's no mathematics at all that mankind has ever known where an asymptotic approach towards some limit doesn't have a mirror version (usually inverted) on the other side of the asymptote.

That’s a strong statement. 1/sqrt(x), over the reals, doesn’t have an inverted world for xIn any event, the Schwarzchild metric itself is an actual example of this. From the perspective of a doomed spaceship at the event horizon, the Schwarzchild metric is quite civilized.

The stuff after the horizon is a different story, but that’s not immediately after crossing the event horizon — it might be whole nanoseconds later :)

Go take a GR class. It’s fun and mind-bending.

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#64
post #13

> It would also mean that quantum field theory in curved spacetime can only be consistent if baryon number fails to be conserved! This would be utterly shocking. Is it really shocking (today)? I mean, isn't this a logical consequence of Hawking radiation for black holes? I thought we were shocked by this a long time ago, but now we're ok with it. The authors of the paper in question may very well be wrong in their ca…

>> if baryon number fails to be conserved! This would be utterly shocking.

> Is it really shocking (today)?

Moreover, there are a few experiments that try to measure the proton decay (that would break the baryon number conservation.) They are run on Earth, far away form any black hole. For now, all of them failed to find a decay, and the conclusion is that the half life of protons is at least 2.4E34 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay#Experimental_evid...

I found an old article by quantamagazine explaining one of the experiment. It's a huge pool of very pure water and a lot of detectors. No black hole required. https://www.quantamagazine.org/no-proton-decay-means-grand-u... (HN discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13201065 )

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, infalling victims will have a rather unpleasant time as they discover that black holes are secretly supernovas frozen in time. Outside observers see the victim's own black body radiation become extremely redshifted, asymptotically matching the black hole's black body radiation. If you mathematically "undo" this distortion for both, then what you are really observing from the outside is a star's worth of matter g…

How are they getting blasted in the face when such a blast would necessarily have to be moving faster than light?

Because time slows down relative the outside observed as you get closer to the event horizon any matter falling inwards starts to compress blocking the matter above it until eventually that matter is compressed to an extreme against the event horizon. The photons that get fired off from that interaction away from the black hole are able to escape and that's why we can see some black holes as being extremely bright. However matter that is spiraling inwards will be blasted by hundreds of years worth of photons from every direction while inside this matter and energy goop and all sorts of other particles in a matter of moments relative to how it is experiencing time.

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#66
Ah yes, our favorite HN “entertainment”. Scientists, quantum physicists in our case, having a beef about Hawking radiation :-)

Besides some high level ideas, which even us normal people can understand, there are so many details linked in the original post that you need an MSc/PhD to fully understand them.

For the time being, let’s just keep that the universe has a few extra trillion years, and isn’t expected to decay in 10⁷⁸ years ;-)

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#67
post #18
post #4

There's an issue this highlights and it's not that the original authors were stupid so much as there's clearly a lot of knowledge held in silos. That's not a good thing if your goal is to advance everyone's knowledge. Whatever is going on in academia is failing relatively closely related fields which is not good.

> There's an issue this highlights [...] there's clearly a lot of knowledge held in silos. I think the real issue this highlights -- which is something everyone knows and still everyone does -- is that people love to spread and discuss sensational stories, and no one likes to hear naysayers ruining the fun. Look the discussion of the original story here in HN[1]. There's a comment by A_D_E_P_T way down in the discuss…

It's a good comment, but too technical. It's difficult to know if it makes sense. I think it's good, but I'm used to read weird stuff in papers. Anyway, my level of general relativity is too low to understand all the details.

I skip that whole thread because I was expecting an overhyped result and I have to sleep from time to time https://xkcd.com/386/ . I'd have upvoted that comment, especially if it was gray.

The comment is like ELI35[1], but for HN it's better to write a ELI25[2] version. Or perhaps a ELI25 introduction and a second ELI35 part with even more technical details. (I never liked ELI5[3].)

[1] I just finished my postdoc in General Relativity.

[2] I just finished my major in Geology. I know atoms and calculus, but I have no idea what covariant is. Moreover, whatever gauge means is not the type of gauges I know.

[3] I just want a lollipop.

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " To maintain consistency with outside observers, this evaporation must occur fast enough that the victim can never reach any surface. Instead, the black hole recedes from them, evaporating faster and faster. " If this is radiating a star's mass worth Hawking radiation particles, is it like the Solar Wind, and if it's happening ever faster is there a point where it would start pushing the victim away from the black…

Yes, infalling victims will have a rather unpleasant time as they discover that black holes are secretly supernovas frozen in time. Outside observers see the victim's own black body radiation become extremely redshifted, asymptotically matching the black hole's black body radiation. If you mathematically "undo" this distortion for both, then what you are really observing from the outside is a star's worth of matter g…

> black holes are secretly supernovas frozen in time.

I don't think that's true. What kills you isn't radiation of the singularity, but cosmic microwave background (and other infalling radiation) turned to visible light, then x-rays, then gamma rays.

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#69
post #14
post #4

There's an issue this highlights and it's not that the original authors were stupid so much as there's clearly a lot of knowledge held in silos. That's not a good thing if your goal is to advance everyone's knowledge. Whatever is going on in academia is failing relatively closely related fields which is not good.

It certainly wasn't in "silos", it's all on arxiv! But yes: the world is complicated and it's easy to make mistakes outside your core field. The point of the scientific process is to get things in front of eyeballs who can spot the mistakes, c.f. the linked blog post. Then everyone fights about it or points and laughs or whatever, and the world moves on. The system worked. What the process is not good at is filtering…

[deleted]

Re: Dead Stars Don’t Radiate

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody knows what happens at the event horizon, but we do know from the perspective of an outside observer things about physics 'break'. It makes sense that there's a flip-side to that 'breakage' (on the inside of the surface, or even "only at" the surface) that isn't just normal space as if nothing happened. For example there's no mathematics at all that mankind has ever known where an asymptotic approach towards so…

> For example there's no mathematics at all that mankind has ever known where an asymptotic approach towards some limit doesn't have a mirror version (usually inverted) on the other side of the asymptote. That’s a strong statement. 1/sqrt(x), over the reals, doesn’t have an inverted world for x In any event, the Schwarzchild metric itself is an actual example of this. From the perspective of a doomed spaceship at the…

What I meant to say was "asymptotically approaches infinity" for 'f(x)' at some limiting value 'x' and thus a left/right mirroring of the function. I shouldn't assume people know I mean vertical just because I say asymptotic, so thanks for catching that imprecision in my wording.

As you probably know, horizontal asymptotes are never what we think of as the 'problematic' parts of Relativity, because when something approaches a constant that's never something that breaks the math.

The Schwarzchild metric, being a relationship of 6 different variables I think, has some relationships that go to infinity asymptotically at the EH radius and some things that approach a constant at that radius, so it's an example of the kind of asymptotic I was talking about _and_ one like your "horizontal" example.

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