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A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

sridattalabs.com

171–180 of 193 posts

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#171
post #47

How about this: charge a subscription fee to perform "destructive" actions on HN. This means posting comments and voting, including upvotes. Perhaps submitting stories can remain free — the paying users will determine the quality of the submissions. Some of us (used to) get a lot of value out of HN, so $10 or $50 a year would be a bargain.

Agree. Creditcard payments, however small, seems to be the by far most efficient way of filtering spam. CC payments make banning have a real effect.

Metafilter is the NIH syndrome on HN.

The problem with the New page is the extreme volume of entries due to everybody being able to post. Voting only goes so far, it doesn't work when you have too much stuff and users feel that their time spent voting doesn't make any significant difference.

The signal-to-noise ratio on the New page must increase before most users will go to the trouble of voting.

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#172
But is there a "Hacker News Manifesto"? No there isn't. HN is what it is because of the community. Sure, there should be moderators to control the profanity level.

But overall, if content is interesting and it's up-voted, it means it's meaningful to someone and therefore should maintain its place on HN.

The content should be driven by the community - if it's too startup related or too technology related is really a subjective matter.

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#174

This, and many of the suggestions in the original thread, and pg's default response, are all falling into the same trap: they are attempting to fix a people problem using technical solutions. Technology can make community management easier. Better algorithms and visual design and so on can improve the way that a community polices itself. But, I think eventually you'll run into vanishing returns from that kind of stuf…

There are technological solutions to some of the problems.

For example, there is an increasing tendency to create dummy accounts for the sole purpose of dissing another user without getting your own account dirty. I was recently at the receiving end of this, and I have since noticed this happening more often all over HN. The solution for this would indeed be simple: don't allow new users to post comments for, say, 8 hours. In general these kinds of measures aim to make destructive behavior less fun, and I think they do work to an extend.

Then there are problems of style that can be solved by having guidelines.

Getting rid of "lolwut", "ORLY", or "Pro Tip:" comments is something we should all agree on; yet those are regularly upvoted, as are remarks that personally attack other users. This can be solved by declaring a ban on these kinds of things, because I believe the majority of users would honor those guidelines of they were made clearer.

Of course, the larger problem is that this even needs to be stated officially in the first place. It should be obvious that lolspeak, at hominem attacks, ridiculous trolling, and employing the basest rhetorical fallacies is not something that we reward here on HN, but nevertheless voters do reward them. That's indeed a problem of audience, not something that can be completely addressed by programming or guidelines.

Then there are people who see destructive criticism as the main problem, which I don't agree with. Personally, I try to keep my criticism constructive if possible and I do appreciate others doing the same. But when I want to receive feedback, I'm glad about any kind of response really as long as the tone of the discussion remains civilized.

The worst thing that can happen with feedback is not getting destructive criticism, it's the absence of any reaction at all.

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#175

This, and many of the suggestions in the original thread, and pg's default response, are all falling into the same trap: they are attempting to fix a people problem using technical solutions. Technology can make community management easier. Better algorithms and visual design and so on can improve the way that a community polices itself. But, I think eventually you'll run into vanishing returns from that kind of stuf…

Certainly some of the suggestions in the article have merit. Encouraging people to browse and vote on stuff in new would be good. But I agree with you. You don't fix human problems by adding technical controls. You fix human problems by adding technical measures designed to enable human controls. My proposal is relatively simple: figure out a high karma number (high enough few people have it) and allow these people t…

> "Technology needs to empower people to manage people. Software should not manage people."

I agree, in a way.

The only communities I have seen that associates numbers with human merit or trustworthiness are the ones populated largely by programmers. I feel this is telling.

I always have low scores on these sites because I am just not motivated to contribute to them. While Jeff Atwood was on to something when he said that users can do a good job when they feel invested in the quality of content on a site, we just cannot expect numbers representing reputation or consensus to always be set rationally. That, and I just hate thinking I will be assigned a score for trying to contribute to a conversation when I have no idea how the site's culture will interpret what I do. We may as well carry those 1-10 judge cards around our necks and stick gold stars on outsiders' foreheads. It's absurd... but apparently it's necessary. It shouldn't be, but I know I can't handle 1 million+ users as a moderator.

One of my old jobs was to facilitate a chapter of Socrates Cafe, a national discourse organization. We allowed anyone at all to come in and share his or her experiences. My job was to facilitate the discussion and put out flames fanned by conversations between opposing parties. So, when atheist/theists, right-wing/left-wing wars erupt, I was supposed to take varying measures to restore order without evoking enough negativity to scare away members. That is, I had to try and settle everyone down while making them feel BETTER about everyone else.

I cannot begin to tell you how ridiculously hard this can be, and technology does not help unless you use it for shameless enforcement.

Intuition and context-awareness helps tremendously, and there have been times where I simply could not think of any solution to one particular heated debate outside of, no joke, an air horn. I hated having to blast all of the words right out of the room, but the group we had (to me) represented a community gone wrong that needed flat out intervention. We never once used tools to try and change the rules of conduct. Instead, we used technology as a brutal and unapologetic last-ditch enforcement of existing rules.

Now... That's a group where everyone saw each other in person. Clearly not the same thing as an online group. That's worse. In this setting, technology is the only thing you HAVE to mediate all interactions, even the "human" ones.

I don't have a real solution to the sorry state of large, rude online communities. In fact, if you made me a moderator, I would probably go on a banning spree until everyone was too terrified to stay on their own accord.

Even so, but I doubt anyone else really has a solution either... Including the OP. Improvement can only be measured until online cultures change in a way to push newly set boundaries.

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#177
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the time it's written and posted, the site has moved on to the next new thing. I noticed this within the context of submissions and /new when I posted two blog posts of mine. Both posts were x000 words so minimum reading was over 3-5 minutes (average time on site was 1.5 minutes so not everyone read to the end). Both times neither posts got any upvotes until half way down the first page. They were surrounded by…

Perhaps votes should be weighted by the length of the submitted post. So, e.g., votes on short submissions are worth less than votes on full essays. Length of the post can be gamed, but I guess when that happens some form of information theoretic measure can be used as part of the weighting. I don't suppose this is already being done, is it?

I like this idea, clever!

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though you are correct in theory, I think the karma points are beneficial in driving the community. I didn't know what it was before I signed up, but now I check it out every now and then (though you can tell by my score, I don't obsess over it). Though maybe having a user know their overall score is a detriment. It doesn't matter how much Karma is accumulated overtime, but consistently benefiting the community is va…

I think levels would be better, taking the idea of a veteran to the next level. But I think the levels should be based on time and "karma". So you start off green, if you stopped on the site 5 years and never added anything you would be green but the same would be said if you were on the site for 5 minutes and got 1000 karma in a day, you would then move up a level or something but didn't get the "veteran" accolade.…

Life is too short to worry about votes and karma. If it really matters to you, just timing posting the right stories will net you hundreds or thousands of karma at a time. Then you can burn a couple karma expressing what you wanted to say even if it's unpopular.

But I don't understand the need for identifying who is a veteran or not. People who use the site will know who is a veteran and who isn't. In addition, someone without much of any karma will be treated probably poorer than many other users, or their ideas dismissed. Just because someone is new to the community doesn't make their comment less valuable.

The site will take care of the sorting/displaying of comments. There's no need for me to see the numbers that make the site run. It just ends up giving some people a false sense of importance. Keep the karma, but hide it, and maybe people will stop changing what they say just because of who they're talking to.

Re: A Proposal To Improve Hacker News

#179
> Distinguish users. Reward users.

Wrong. Instead user karma system should be deleted completely. (Yes, I know that I am a "newbie" here. Think what you want.). I have seen too many portals died or degraded by the weight of "karma". The only working example is probably Stack Overflow and I think they won't last long because of it.

Only reason why SO can survive is continuous strict moderation. I like "C++ vs Java", "Most influential book" and similar topics very much but they really don't belong to SO by their rules.

The same should be applied to HN - ban those millions Twitter and FB topics. Ban topics with complaints (however reasonable). Ban SOPA/ACTA etc. topics.

In short - filter everything that is not educational for IT specialists. Yes, it would be more boring that way (or not) but it would ensure HN quality and survival.

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