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Thoughts on thinking

dcurt.is

81–90 of 459 posts

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#81
post #31

> The fun has been sucked out of the process of creation because nothing I make organically can compete with what AI already produces—or soon will. So the fun, all along, was not in the process of creation itself, but in the fact that the creator could somehow feel superior to others not being able to create? I find this to be a very unhealthy relationship to creativity. My mixer can mix dough better than I can, but…

> So the fun, all along, was not in the process of creation itself, but in the fact that the creator could somehow feel superior to others not being able to create? I find this to be a very unhealthy relationship to creativity.

People realize this at various points in their life, and some not at all.

In terms the author might accept, the metaphor of the stoic archer comes to mind. Focusing on the action, not the target is what relieves one of the disappointment of outcome. In this cast, the action is writing while the target is having better thoughts.

Much of our life is governed by the success at which we hit our targets, but why do that to oneself? We have a choice in how we approach the world, and setting our intentions toward action and away from targets is a subtle yet profound shift.

A clearer example might be someone who wants to make a friend. Let's imagine they're at a party and they go in with the intention of making a friend, they're setting themselves up for failure. They have relatively little control over that outcome. However, if they go in with the intention of showing up authentically - something people tend to appreciate, and something they have full control over - the changes of them succeeding increase dramatically.

Choosing one's goals - primarily grounded in action - is an under-appreciated perspective.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#82
Reminds me of this:

“There are no shortcuts to knowledge, especially knowledge gained from personal experience. Following conventional wisdom and relying on shortcuts can be worse than knowing nothing at all.” ― Ben Horowitz

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#83
I feel similar, except not because of AI but the internet. Almost all my knowledge and opinions have already been explained by other people who put in more effort than I could. Anything I'd create, art or computation, high-quality similar things already exist. Even this comment echoes similar writing.

Almost. Similar. I still make things because sometimes what I find online (and what I can generate from AI) isn't "good enough" and I think I can do better. Even when there's something similar that I can reuse, I still make things to develop my skills for further occasions when there isn't.

For example, somebody always needs a slightly different JavaScript front-end or CRM, even though there must be hundreds (thousands? tens-of-thousands?) by now. There are many programming languages, UI libraries, operating systems, etc. and some have no real advantages, but many do and consequently have a small but dedicated user group. As a PhD student, I learn a lot about my field only to make a small contribution*, but chains of small contributions lead to breakthroughs.

The outlook on creative works is even more optimistic, because there will probably never be enough due to desensitization. People watch new movies and listen to new songs not because they're better but because they're different. AI is especially bad at creative writing and artwork, probably because it fundamentally generates "average"; when AI art is good, it's because the human author gave it a creative prompt, and when AI art is really good, it's because the human author manually edited it post-generation. (I also suspect that when AI gets creative, people will become even more creative to compensate, like how I suspect today we have more movies that defy tropes and more video games with unique mechanics; but there's probably a limit, because something can only be so creative before it's random and/or uninteresting.)

Maybe one day AI can automate production-quality software development, PhD-level research, and human-level creativity. But IME today's (at least publicly-facing) models really lack these abilities. I don't worry about when AI is powerful enough to produce high-quality outputs (without specific high-quality prompts), because assuming it doesn't lead to an apocalypse or dystopia, I believe the advantages are so great, the loss of human uniqueness won't matter anymore.

* Described in https://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#84
post #79

My thoughts are that it's key that humans know they will still get credit for their contributions. E.g. imagine it was the case that you could write a blog post, with some insight, in some niche field – but you know that traffic isn't going to get directed to your site. Instead, an LLM will ingest it, and use the material when people ask about the topic, without giving credit. If you know that will happen, it's not a…

> I guess the main (valid) concern is that LLMs get so good at thought I don't think that's a valid concern, because LLMs can't think. They are generating tokens one at a time. They're calculating the most likely token to appear based on the arrangements of tokens that were seen in their training data. There is no thinking, there is no reasoning. If they they seem like they're doing these things, it's because they ar…

> LLMs can't think. They are generating tokens one at a time

Huh? They are generating tokens one at a time - sure that's true. But who's shown that predicting tokens one at a time precludes thinking?

It's been shown that the models plan ahead, i.e. think more than just one token forward. [1]

How do you explain the world models that have been detected in LLMs? E.g. OthelloGPT [2] is just given sequences of games to train on, but it has been shown that the model learns to have an internal representation of the game. Same with ChessGPT [3].

For tasks like this, (and with words), real thought is required to predict the next token well; e.g. if you don't understand chess to the level of Magnus Carlsen, how are you going to predict Magnus Carlsen's next move...

...You wouldn't be able to, even just from looking at his previous games; you'd have to actually understand chess, and think about what would be a good move, (and in his style).

[1] https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-language...

[2] https://www.neelnanda.io/mechanistic-interpretability/othell...

[3] https://adamkarvonen.github.io/machine_learning/2024/01/03/c...

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#85
I recently finished my PhD studies in social sciences. Even though it did not lead me to career improvements as I initially expected, I am happy I had the opportunity to undertake an academic endeavor before LLMs became cheap and ubiquitous.

I bring up my studies because what the author is talking about strikes me as not having been ambitious enough in his thinking. If you prompt current LLMs with your idea and find the generated arguments and reasoning satisfactory, then you aren't really being rigorous or you're not having big enough ideas.

I say this confidently because my studies showed me not only the methods in finding and contrasting evidence around any given issue, but also how much more there is to learn about the universe. So, if you're being rigorous enough to look at implications of your theories, finding datapoints that speak to your conclusions and find that your question has been answered, then your idea is too small for what the state of knowledge is in 2025.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#86
post #31

> The fun has been sucked out of the process of creation because nothing I make organically can compete with what AI already produces—or soon will. So the fun, all along, was not in the process of creation itself, but in the fact that the creator could somehow feel superior to others not being able to create? I find this to be a very unhealthy relationship to creativity. My mixer can mix dough better than I can, but…

Yeah, there’s something this person needs to embrace about the process rather than being some kind of modern John Henry, comparing themselves to a machine. There’s still value in the things a person creates despite what AI can derive from its training model of Reddit comments. Find peace in the process of making and you’ll continue to love it.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#87
post #31

> The fun has been sucked out of the process of creation because nothing I make organically can compete with what AI already produces—or soon will. So the fun, all along, was not in the process of creation itself, but in the fact that the creator could somehow feel superior to others not being able to create? I find this to be a very unhealthy relationship to creativity. My mixer can mix dough better than I can, but…

We need to start taking a leaf of advice from spiritual knowledge that "You are not the doer." You were never the doer. The doing happened on its own. You were merely a vessel, an instrument. A Witness. Observe your inner mechanisms of mind, and you will quickly come to this realisation.

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#88

There's quite a dichotomy going on in software development. With AI, we can all create much more than we ever could before, and make it much better and even in much less time, but what we've lost is the sense of pride that comes with the act of creating/coding, because nowadays: 1) If you wrote most of it yourself then you failed to adequately utilize AI Coding agents and yet... 2) If AI wrote most of it, then there'…

Maybe, but will anyone understand what they are creating?

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#89
post #31

> The fun has been sucked out of the process of creation because nothing I make organically can compete with what AI already produces—or soon will. So the fun, all along, was not in the process of creation itself, but in the fact that the creator could somehow feel superior to others not being able to create? I find this to be a very unhealthy relationship to creativity. My mixer can mix dough better than I can, but…

Knowing that what I do anyone can do, no matter how well I'll do it, is discouraging. Because then, what is my purpose? What can I say that I'm good at?

That's a deeper question that only you can answer. I can only say that your thinking based on how you phrased it doesn't really lead to happiness in general

Re: Thoughts on thinking

#90
post #31

> The fun has been sucked out of the process of creation because nothing I make organically can compete with what AI already produces—or soon will. So the fun, all along, was not in the process of creation itself, but in the fact that the creator could somehow feel superior to others not being able to create? I find this to be a very unhealthy relationship to creativity. My mixer can mix dough better than I can, but…

Let's frame it more generously: The reward is based on being able to contribute something novel to the world - not because nobody else can but because it's another contribution to the world's knowledge.

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