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Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

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21–30 of 106 posts

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#21

How large do you wager your moat to be? Confidential computing is something all major cloud providers either have or are about to have and from there it's a very small step to offer LLM-s under the same umbrella. First mover advantage is of course considerable, but I can't help but feel that this market will very quickly be swallowed by the hyperscalers.

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Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#22

hasn’t iexec (french co) been doing this for years? what’s your competitive advantage or moat, considering they are the first-movers?

CPU-based TEEs (AWS Nitro Enclaves, AMD SEV, Intel TDX) have been around for a few years, but aren’t widely used because they are more akin to primitives than fully baked security solutions. We are trying to make this as user friendly and self serve as possible, with full verifiability by open sourcing the entire server that runs inside the enclave. So far we have not found any end to end verifiably private solution on the market that we could just sign up for to try, which was a big reason we started Tinfoil in the first place. We also strongly believe that verifiably private AI should be the norm, so the more players in the space, the better because a missing piece is market awareness and convincing folks this is actually possible and real.

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#23
Does this not require one to trust the hardware? I'm not an expert in hardware root of trust, etc, but if Intel (or whatever chip maker) decides to just sign code that doesn't do what they say it does (coerced or otherwise) or someone finds a vuln; would that not defeat the whole purpose?

I'm not entirely sure this is different than "security by contract", except the contracts get bigger and have more technology around them?

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#24

How large do you wager your moat to be? Confidential computing is something all major cloud providers either have or are about to have and from there it's a very small step to offer LLM-s under the same umbrella. First mover advantage is of course considerable, but I can't help but feel that this market will very quickly be swallowed by the hyperscalers.

Being gobbled by the hyperscalers may well be the plan. Reasonable bet.

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#25

hasn’t iexec (french co) been doing this for years? what’s your competitive advantage or moat, considering they are the first-movers?

CPU-based TEEs (AWS Nitro Enclaves, AMD SEV, Intel TDX) have been around for a few years, but aren’t widely used because they are more akin to primitives than fully baked security solutions. We are trying to make this as user friendly and self serve as possible, with full verifiability by open sourcing the entire server that runs inside the enclave. So far we have not found any end to end verifiably private solution…

Been building something along these lines for a while. At Qbix, we call it our QBOX. Full stack, using Nix for the base, and Nitro attestation. No SSH. We have the exact same approach — cron running and only downloading signed scripts and binaries from endpoints. But there is a lot more… Would be great to connect and maybe join forces.

Want to connect some time next Tuesday or Wednesday? https://calendly.com/qbix/meeting

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#26

How large do you wager your moat to be? Confidential computing is something all major cloud providers either have or are about to have and from there it's a very small step to offer LLM-s under the same umbrella. First mover advantage is of course considerable, but I can't help but feel that this market will very quickly be swallowed by the hyperscalers.

Confidential computing as a technology will become (and should be) commoditized, so the value add comes down to security and UX. We don’t want to be a confidential computing company, we want to use the right tool for the job of building private & verifiable AI. If that becomes FHE in a few years, then we will use that. We are starting with easy-to-use inference, but our goal of having any AI application be provably private

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#27

So impressive - cloud AI that is verifiable with zero trust assumptions is going to be game-changing regardless of the industry application. Looks like it could be used by anyone for making anything trustworthy.

> with zero trust assumptions

It's not that though. Not close. You are trusting the chip maker, whose process is secret (actually worse, it's almost certainly shared with the state).

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPU-based TEEs (AWS Nitro Enclaves, AMD SEV, Intel TDX) have been around for a few years, but aren’t widely used because they are more akin to primitives than fully baked security solutions. We are trying to make this as user friendly and self serve as possible, with full verifiability by open sourcing the entire server that runs inside the enclave. So far we have not found any end to end verifiably private solution…

Been building something along these lines for a while. At Qbix, we call it our QBOX. Full stack, using Nix for the base, and Nitro attestation. No SSH. We have the exact same approach — cron running and only downloading signed scripts and binaries from endpoints. But there is a lot more… Would be great to connect and maybe join forces. Want to connect some time next Tuesday or Wednesday? https://calendly.com/qbix/mee…

Yes, excited to connect, scheduled a call! We used Nitro back in December when we were prototyping but moved to NVIDIA CC because we wanted to support LLMs.

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#29

Does this not require one to trust the hardware? I'm not an expert in hardware root of trust, etc, but if Intel (or whatever chip maker) decides to just sign code that doesn't do what they say it does (coerced or otherwise) or someone finds a vuln; would that not defeat the whole purpose? I'm not entirely sure this is different than "security by contract", except the contracts get bigger and have more technology arou…

We have to trust the hardware manufacturer (Intel/AMD/NVIDIA) designed their chips to execute the instructions we inspect, so we're assuming trust in vendor silicon either way.

The real benefit of confidential computing is to extend that trust to the source code too (the inference server, OS, firmware).

Maybe one day we’ll have truly open hardware ;)

Re: Launch HN: Tinfoil (YC X25): Verifiable Privacy for Cloud AI

#30

How large do you wager your moat to be? Confidential computing is something all major cloud providers either have or are about to have and from there it's a very small step to offer LLM-s under the same umbrella. First mover advantage is of course considerable, but I can't help but feel that this market will very quickly be swallowed by the hyperscalers.

This. Big tech providers already offer confidential inference today.
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