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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#101

Post by listenallyall »

jmyeet wrote: post #33

I was living in London when congestion pricing was introduced and went into the West End the day before and the first day of and the difference was night and day. The difference along Oxford Street, Regent's Street, Green Street, etc was astounding. And in the 20+ years the evidence seems to back up how much of a net positive it has been. NYC congestion pricing took way too long because the New York Democratic Party…

Why does the slippery slope concept surprise you? It actually happens often - banning smoking indoors, for example - started in just one city, once they tweaked the model and overcame the legal challenges, it spread rather quickly. Legalized casinos, same thing. Uber, drinking age, pot legalization, more. Why would toll roads or congestion pricing be different? (Idaho's Sun Valley probably already implements something similar). And ICE vehicles are definitely in many politicians' crosshairs, if you don't already see that coming in the next decade, you aren't really looking.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#102

Post by fundaThree »

burkaman wrote: post #93
fundaThree wrote: post #90

I thought Hochul ratfucked this initiative for no apparent reason. What was the reason she gave for not ratfucking it a second time?

She delayed it by 6 months because she thought it would hurt some candidates in House elections, and then she reduced the fee by a significant amount when it did go into effect in January, but it's still working incredibly well.

> She delayed it by 6 months because she thought it would hurt some candidates in House elections

Did she think that New Jersey residents vote for New York candidates? Do you have a link to the narrative?

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#103

Post by RhysU »

Vinnl wrote: post #80
RhysU wrote: post #57

Congestion isn't limited to cars. My pregnant wife was hit yesterday in SoHo in broad daylight by a delivery driver on an e-bike. He ran a redlight. He hit her in a crosswalk. She was wearing a bright orange dress. She was not on a phone or listening to music. She went flying ass over teakettle. We spent 6 hours in the ER yesterday evening to make sure our unborn baby was okay. Fortunately, everyone is OK despite her…

Oof, that sucks. Glad that delivery driver wasn't in a car though! Could've ended much worse.

Yeah, just imagine. I did. For hours yesterday evening I imagined.

Had a car killed my wife or unborn child, there would have been a legal trail and insurance.

Had the e-bike killed my wife or unborn child, there was neither. I doubt I could ever find the killer of the unborn child if the baby died later due to injuries-- there's neither license nor registration on an e-bike.

Pushing powered transportation into the unregulated, uninsured space is madness.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#104

Post by jcranmer »

RhysU wrote: post #57

Congestion isn't limited to cars. My pregnant wife was hit yesterday in SoHo in broad daylight by a delivery driver on an e-bike. He ran a redlight. He hit her in a crosswalk. She was wearing a bright orange dress. She was not on a phone or listening to music. She went flying ass over teakettle. We spent 6 hours in the ER yesterday evening to make sure our unborn baby was okay. Fortunately, everyone is OK despite her…

Were that delivery driver using a car instead of a bike, then your wife would likely be dead instead of in the ER.

(At least in the US, having a driver's license is in no way, shape, or form an indication that the driver is capable of driving correctly, much less their willingness to do so.)

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#105

Post by listenallyall »

aclatuts wrote: post #70
explodes wrote: post #4

Wouldn't it be nice if policy changes were accompanied by an A/B testing plan to evaluate their impact? I have always thought so. I have also seen a major pitfall of A/B testing that real humans can hand-pick and slice data to make it sound as positive or negative as wanted. Nonetheless, the more data the better.

The real world isn't A/B tests. No government is going to spend millions on equipment and infrastructure on a congestion zone because some engineers are like "Let's just test this out. I have done zero research on what could possibly happen, but it would be fun to see what the results are."

When you write it out like that, it seems to make total sense! But then you read grant proposals that get funded - in things like the social sciences and humanities, and even conventional science and health - millions of dollars essentially just throwing darts to see what sticks.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#106

Post by philipov »

fundaThree wrote: post #102
burkaman wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She delayed it by 6 months because she thought it would hurt some candidates in House elections, and then she reduced the fee by a significant amount when it did go into effect in January, but it's still working incredibly well.

> She delayed it by 6 months because she thought it would hurt some candidates in House elections Did she think that New Jersey residents vote for New York candidates? Do you have a link to the narrative?

Westchester County and Long Island residents vote for New York candidates.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#107

Post by listenallyall »

fundaThree wrote: post #90

I thought Hochul ratfucked this initiative for no apparent reason. What was the reason she gave for not ratfucking it a second time?

This guy is so cool, he uses the word "ratfucked"! Twice! Not just "fucked", but "ratfucked". Of course, congestion pricing was in fact implemented and remains in effect, so maybe not entirely "ratfucked"? Guess I'm not cool enough to understand. And because of his choice of words, people who are unfamiliar with this project don't even know what action(s) Kathy Hochul actually took that was/were detrimental.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#108

Post by kmeisthax »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #71
neves wrote: post #36

Impressive how cars are harmful to society. This is just a small example. We should be more radical in preventing the use of individual automobiles. If it works in a country where the auto is so ingrained in the culture and lifestyle, it can work anywhere.

The converse is how helpful cars are. It allows people to have the ability commute from areas they live at to where they work. It brings down the cost of living by expanding the commute availability circle, instead of driving up land values for the desirable areas.

Expanding the commute availability circle does not increase the supply of housing, because people build sparser neighborhoods with larger lawns. If you want to increase the supply of housing, you need higher density, not longer distance.

What longer distance does is make the closer areas more valuable, because people will pay $$$ for a shorter commute. And for those who can't afford the closer housing, they get to pay $$ on a car and gas instead.

Cars are only helpful in exactly two scenarios:

1. You live in a remote rural area where any sort of transit infrastructure is comically infeasible. 99% of the people posting here do not quality for this.

2. You live in a city so maliciously planned out that living without a car is unthinkable and that any other option to get to where you're going is not available.

I use the word "malicious" because the gutting of American cities' transit infrastructure was a deliberate act by American car companies giving their competition the mafia bust-out treatment.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#109

Post by woodruffw »

listenallyall wrote: post #101
jmyeet wrote: post #33

I was living in London when congestion pricing was introduced and went into the West End the day before and the first day of and the difference was night and day. The difference along Oxford Street, Regent's Street, Green Street, etc was astounding. And in the 20+ years the evidence seems to back up how much of a net positive it has been. NYC congestion pricing took way too long because the New York Democratic Party…

Why does the slippery slope concept surprise you? It actually happens often - banning smoking indoors, for example - started in just one city, once they tweaked the model and overcame the legal challenges, it spread rather quickly. Legalized casinos, same thing. Uber, drinking age, pot legalization, more. Why would toll roads or congestion pricing be different? (Idaho's Sun Valley probably already implements somethin…

These would be examples of normalization, not a slippery slope. The OP's example makes this clear (from "congestion pricing in NYC" to "they're going to take my car," not "congestion pricing in NYC" to "congestion pricing elsewhere").

(Regardless, I think the answer is simple: congestion pricing is only economically viable when an area is simultaneously congested and has alternative transportation methods that would prevent the local economy from collapsing. NYC is one of a very small handful of cities in the US where this is true, although that's largely a function of 80 years of car-centric design. Maybe it will change.)

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#110

Post by fundaThree »

philipov wrote: post #106
fundaThree wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She delayed it by 6 months because she thought it would hurt some candidates in House elections Did she think that New Jersey residents vote for New York candidates? Do you have a link to the narrative?

Westchester County and Long Island residents vote for New York candidates.

Fair, I guess I have no clue who on earth would willingly opt into driving into New York in the first place.
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