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The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

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Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#741
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Efficiency related regulation like the energy star is THE reason why companies started caring. Same with low flush toilets. I vaguely remember the initial ones had issues, but tbh less than the older use a ton of water toilets my family had before that were also super clog prone. Nowadays I can’t even remember the last time a low flush toilet clogged. Massive water saving that took regulation. Efficiency regulations…

I literally had a new toilet put in a couple of years ago. It clogs pretty easily. So you just end up flushing it more, so you don't actually save any water. BTW the same thing happened with vacuum cleaners, you need to hover more to get the same amount of dust out because they capped the power in the EU. My old Vacuum Cleaner I managed to find, literally sticks to the carpet when hoovering.

Sorry to hear you got a bum toilet, luckily for you, there’s the other huge benefit of low flush toilets that I didn’t mention.

Even with a total clog, there’s a 1-2 flush bowl capacity before it over flows.

Who remembers the abject terror of watching the water rise in a clogged high flush toilet and just praying it didn’t overflow.

Also unless every usage is a big poop requiring extra flushes, it’s far fetched that more flushes occasionally are adding up to the same water usage. If the toilet clogs for #1, something is very wrong - likely installed wrong, plumbing issues, or user error. Your toilet might not have been seated right so the wax seal ring is partially blocking the sewer line.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is made in lua using love2d. That helped the developers and comes with a cost in minimal requirements (even if they aren't much for a game released in 2024).

One way to think about it is: If we were coding all our games in C with no engine, they would run faster, but we would have far fewer games. Fewer games means fewer hits. Odds are Balatro wouldn't have been made, because those developer hours would've been allocated to some other game which wasn't as good.

Balatro was started in vacation time and underwent a ton of tweaking: https://localthunk.com/blog/balatro-timeline-3aarh So if it had to be written in C, probably neither of those would have happened.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So again, what you're saying is there is a tradeoff. You just think it should be made in a different place than where the vast majority of engineers in the world choose to make it. Show me what it is I said that makes you think that. That's fine! It's probably because they're idiots and you're really smart, but it's obviously not because there's no tradeoff. Where did I say any of this? I could teach anyone to make f…

> I could teach anyone to make faster software in an hour or two, Is one or two hours of two engineers' time more than zero hours, or no? > just a little learning up front Is a little learning more than zero learning, or no? IMO your argument would hold a lot more weight if people felt like their software (as users) is slow, but many people do not. Save for a few applications, I would prefer they keep their same perf…

Now learning something new for a few hours means we'd have to give up is squishy hard-to-measure things like "feature sets" and "engineering velocity." ?

You made up stuff I didn't say, you won't back up your claims with any sort of evidence, you keep saying things that aren't relevant, what is the point of this?

This thread is john carmack saying the world could get by with cheaper computers if software wasn't so terrible and you are basically trying to argue with zero evidence that software needs to be terrible.

Why can't you give any evidence to back up your original claim? Why can't you show a single program fragment or give a single example?

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#744
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did Political corruption not exist? In what system in history did the people in power have so few rotten apples that corruption was an anomally? Blaming corruption on capitalism is silly. As long has worldhas resources, people want control of reasources, and bad actors will do bad actors thingies.

You're right, political corruption is a problem in other systems as well, not just capitalism. I guess it would be more accurate to say that power concentration causes political corruption. We should try to figure out if it's possible to manage the economy in a way that limits the amount of power any individual can have to such an extent that corruption would be impossible.

I don't think there is exists a magical political system that we set up and it magically protects us from corruption. Forever. Just like any system (like surviving in an otherwise hostile nature) it needs maintenance. Maintenance in a political or any social structure is getting off your bottom and imposing some "reward" signal on the system.

Corruption mainly exists because people have low standards for enforcing eradication of it. This is observable in the smallest levels. In countries where corruption is deeply engraved, even university student groups will be corrupted. Elected officials of societies of any size will be prone to put their personal interests in front of the groups' and will appoint or employ friends instead of randomers based on some quality metrics. The question is what are the other people willing to do? Is anyone willing to call them out? Is anyone willing to instead put on the job themselves and do it right (which can be demanding)?

The real question is how far are the individuals willing to go and how much discomfort are they willing to embrace to impose their requirements, needs, moral expectations on the political leader? The outcomes of many situations you face in society (should that be a salary negotiation or someone trying to rip you off in a shop) depend on how much sacrifice (e.g. discomfort) you are willing to take on to get out as a "winner" (or at least non-loser) of the situation? Are you willing to quit your job if you cannot get what you want? Are you going to argue with the person trying to rip you off? Are you willing to go to a lawyer and sue them and take a long legal battle? If people keep choosing the easier way, there will always be people taking advantage of that. Sure, we have laws but laws also need maintenance and anyone wielding power needs active check! It doesn't just magically happen but the force that can keep it in check is every individual in the system. Technological advances and societal changes always lead to new ideas how to rip others off. What we would need is to truly punish the people trying to take advantage of such situations: no longer do business with them, ask others to boycott such behaviour (and don't vote for dickheads!, etc.) -- even in the smallest friends group such an issue could arise.

The question is: how much are people willing to sacrifice on a daily basis to put pressure on corrupt people? There is no magic here, just the same bare evolutionary forces in place for the past 100,000 years of humankind.

(Just think about it: even in rule of law, the ultimate way of enforcing someone to obey the rules is by pure physical force. If someone doesn't listen, ever, he will be picked up by other people and forced into a physical box and won't be allowed to leave. And I don't expect that to ever change, regardless of the political system. Similarly, we need to keep up an army at all times. If you simply go hard pacifist, someone will take advantage of that... Evolution. )

Democracy is an active game to be played and not just every 4 years. In society, people's everyday choices and standards are the "natural forces of evolution".

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Investing in engineering quality is pointless if there is no headroom to deliver experiences that will make a customer say "Wow, I need to have that." This. Per your example, this is exactly what it was like when most of us first used Google after having used AltaVista for a few years. Or Google Maps after having used MapQuest for a few years. Google invested their resources correctly in building a product that was…

>> Or Google Maps after having used MapQuest for a few years. Google invested their resources correctly in building a product that was head and shoulders above the competition. Except that they didn't: they bought a company that had been building a product that was head and shoulders above the competition (Where 2 Technologies), then they also bought Keyhole which became Google Earth. Incidentally they also bought, n…

Google Maps as it launched was the integration of 3 pre-existing products: KeyHole (John Hanke, provided the satellite imagery), Where 2 (Lars & Jens Rasmussen, was a desktop-based mapping system), and Google Local (internal, PM was Bret Taylor, provided the local business data). Note that both KeyHole and Where 2 were C++ desktop apps; it was rewritten as browser-based Javascript internally. Soon after launch they integrated functionality from ZipDash (traffic data) and Waze (roadside events).

People read that YouTube or Android were acquisitions and don't realize just how much development happened internally, though. Android was a 6-person startup; basically all the code was written post-acquisition. YouTube was a pure-Python application at time of acquisition; they rewrote everything on the Google stack soon afterwards, and that was necessary for it to scale. They were also facing a company-ending lawsuit from Viacom that they needed Google's legal team to fight; the settlement to it hinged on ContentID, which was developed in-house at Google.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market can’t tell high quality vs not it’s all signaling. Wine has the same problem

Funny, I was about to say the same about wine.

I’m a big coffee fan and the market has no ability toto price that either. Bad coffee can be expensive and good coffee cheap.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#747
post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet doing an ipconfig or netsh wlan show interfaces isn't always instantaneous depending on your hardware and the rest of your configuration. I can't tell you what all it's actually doing under the hood, but I've definitely seen variations of performance on different hardware. Sometimes the devices and drivers just suck. Sometimes it's not the software's fault it's running at 43fps. I'm hitting the little quick s…

I don't know what operating system you're talking about, but the bottleneck on my linux machine for asking for interfaces is the fact that stdout is write blocking. I routinely have shy of 100 network interfaces active and `ip a` is able to query everything in nanoseconds.

Considering this whole conversation is about sometimes some people have a little bit of slowness drawing the quick settings area in Windows 11 and I gave commands like "netsh" it should be pretty dang obvious which OS we're talking about. But I guess some people have challenges with context clues.

And once again, on some Linux machines I've had over the years, doing an ip a command could hang or take a while if the device is in a bad state or being weird. It normally returns almost instantly, but sometimes has been slow to give me the information.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a problem when people who aren't very sensitive to latency and try and track it, and that is that their perception of what "instant" actually means is wrong. For them, instant is like, one second. For someone who cares about latency, instant is less than 10 milliseconds, or whatever threshold makes the difference between input and result imperceptible. People have the same problem judging video game framerate…

I fear that such comments are similar to the old 'a monster cable makes my digital audio sound more mellow!' The eye percieves at about 10 hz. That's 100ms per capture. All the rest, I'd have to see a study that shows how any higher framerate can possibly be perceived or useful.

> The eye perceives at about 10 hz.

Not sure what this means; the eye doesn’t perceive anything. Maybe you’re thinking of saccades or round-trip response times or something else? Those are in the ~100ms range, but that’s different from whether the eye can see something.

This paper shows pictures can be recognized at 13ms, which is faster than 60hz, and that’s for full scenes, not even motion tracking or small localized changes. https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13414-013-0605-z

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hm, you could do that quite easily but there isn't much juice to be squeezed from runtime selected data structures. Set with O(1) insert: But now you've hard-coded this selection, why can't the performance characteristics also be easily parameterized and combined, eg. insert is O(1), delete is O(log(n)), or by defining indexes in SQL which can be changed at any time at runtime? Or maybe the performance characterist…

There are research papers that examine this question of whether runtime optimizing data structures is a win, and it's mostly not outside of some special cases like strings. Most collections are quite small. Really big collections tend to be either caches (which are often specialized anyway), or inside databases where you do have more flexibility. A language fully integrated with the relational model exists, that's PL…

Funnily enough, the combination of .NET and PL/SQL already exists today, albeit in a literal sense:

https://pldotnet.brickabode.com/cms/uploads/pldotnet_v0_99_b...

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could teach anyone to make faster software in an hour or two, Is one or two hours of two engineers' time more than zero hours, or no? > just a little learning up front Is a little learning more than zero learning, or no? IMO your argument would hold a lot more weight if people felt like their software (as users) is slow, but many people do not. Save for a few applications, I would prefer they keep their same perf…

Now learning something new for a few hours means we'd have to give up is squishy hard-to-measure things like "feature sets" and "engineering velocity." ? You made up stuff I didn't say, you won't back up your claims with any sort of evidence, you keep saying things that aren't relevant, what is the point of this? This thread is john carmack saying the world could get by with cheaper computers if software wasn't so te…

Okay let's do it this way.

It's obviously true the world could get by with cheaper computers if software was more performant.

So why don't we?

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