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The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

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Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#661
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bounds checking solves one tiny subset of security. There are hundreds of other subsets that we know how to solve. However these days the majority of the bad attacks are social and no technology is likely to solve them - as more than 10,000 years of history of the same attack has shown. Technology makes the attacks worse because they now scale, but social attacks have been happening for longer than recorded history (…

> However these days the majority of the bad attacks are social You're going to have to cite a source for that. Bounds checking is one mechanism that addresses memory safety vulnerabilities. According to MSFT and CISA[1], nearly 70% of CVEs are due to memory safety problems. You're saying that we shouldn't solve one (very large) part of the (very large) problem because there are other parts of the problem that the so…

While I do not have data comparing them, I have a few remarks:

1. Scammer Payback and others are documenting on-going attacks that involve social engineering that are not getting the attention that they deserve.

2. You did not provide any actual data on the degree to which bounds checks are “large”. You simply said they were because they are a subset of a large group. There are diseases that only affect less than 100 people in the world that do not get much attention. You could point out that the people affected are humans, which is a group that consists of all people in the world. Thus, you can say that one of these rare diseases affects a large number of people and thus should be a priority. At least, that is what you just did with bounds checks. I doubt that they are as rare as my analogy would suggest, but the point is that the percentage is somewhere between 0 and 70% and without any real data, your claim that it is large is unsubstantiated. That being said, most C software I have touched barely uses arrays for bound checks to be relevant, and when it does use arrays, it is for strings. There are safe string functions available for use like strlcpy() and strlcat() that largely solve the string issues by doing bounds checks. Unfortunately, people keep using the unsafe functions like strcpy() and strcat(). You would have better luck if you suggested people use safe string handling functions rather than suggest compilers insert bounds checks.

3. Your link mentions CHERI, which a hardware solution for this problem. It is a shame that AMD/Intel and ARM do not modify their ISAs to incorporate the extension. I do not mean the Morello processor, which is a proof of concept. I mean the ISA specifications used in all future processors. You might have more luck if you lobby for CHERI adoption by those companies.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#662

The priority should be safety, not speed. I prefer an e.g. slower browser or OS that isn't ridden with exploits and attack vectors. Of course that doesn't mean everything should be done in JS and Electron as there's a lot of drawbacks to that. There exists a reasonable middle ground where you get e.g. memory safety but don't operate on layers upon layers of heavy abstraction and overhead.

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Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#663
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaping wound that lifted billions out of powerty and produced the greatest standard of living in human history.

Actually, the system that produced the greatest standard of living increase in human history is whatever Communist China's been doing for the last century.

Almost like they made a great leap forward during that century.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#664
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also the exact reason why all the bright-eyed pieces that some technology would increase worker's productivity and therefore allow more leisure time for the worker (20 hour workweek etc) are either hopelessly naive or pure propaganda. Increased productivity means that the company has a new option to either reduce costs or increase output at no additional cost, one of which it has to do to stay ahead in the ra…

> 20 hour workweek etc We have that already. It's called part-time jobs. Usually they don't pay as much as full-time jobs, provide no health insurance or other benefits, etc.

It's a bad deal as a developer. I receive 50% of the money but still provide 70-80% value to the company.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#665
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaping wound that lifted billions out of powerty and produced the greatest standard of living in human history.

Actually, the system that produced the greatest standard of living increase in human history is whatever Communist China's been doing for the last century.

...and they use money so it's capitalism.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#666
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS Code defers a lot of tasks to the background at least. This is a bit more visible in intellij; you seem to measure how long it takes to show its window, but how long does it take for it to warm up and finish indexing / loading everything, or before it actually becomes responsive? Anyway, five seconds is long for a text editor; 10, 15 years ago, sublime text loaded and opened up a file in Also keep in mind that des…

Sublime Text isn't an IDE though so comparing it to VS Code is comparing grapes and apples. VS Code is doing a lot more.

VScode isn't an IDE either, visual studio is one. After that it all depends what plugins you loaded in both of them.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#667
post #167
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad software is not cheaper to make (or maintain) in the long-term.

There are many exceptions. 1. Sometimes speed = money. Being the first to market, meeting VC-set milestones for additional funding, and not running out of runway are all things cheaper than the alternatives. Software maintenance costs later don't come close to opportunity costs if a company/project fails. 2. Most of the software is disposable. It's made to be sold, and the code repo will be chucked into a .zip on som…

The other factor here is that in the number-go-up world that many of the US tech firms operate in, your company has to always be growing in order to be considered successful, and as long as your company is growing, future engineer time will always be cheaper than current engineering time (and should you stop growing, you are done for anyway, and you won't need those future engineers).

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#668
post #648

I'm going to be pretty blunt. Carmack gets worshiped when he shouldn't be. He has several bad takes in terms of software. Further, he's frankly behind the times when it comes to the current state of the software ecosystem. I get it, he's legendary for the work he did at id software. But this is the guy who only like 5 years ago was convinced that static analysis was actually a good thing for code. He seems to have a…

> But this is the guy who only like 5 years ago was convinced that static analysis was actually a good thing for code. Why isn't it? > Interpreted stuff is slow Well, it is. You can immediately tell the difference between most C/C++/Rust/... programs and Python/Ruby/... Either because they're implicitly faster (nature) or they foster an environment where performance matters (nurture), it doesn't matter, the end resul…

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Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#669

I mean, if you put win 95 on a period appropriate machine, you can do office work easily. All that is really driving computing power is the web and gaming. If we weren't doing either of those things as much, I bet we could all quite happily use machines from the 2000s era

I do have Windows 2000 installed with IIS (and some office stuff) in a ESXi for fun and nostalgia. It serves some static html pages within my local network. The host machine is some kind of i7 machine that is about 7-10 years old.

That machine is SOOOOOO FAST. I love it. To be honest, that tasks that I was doing back in the day are identical to today

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#670

I have been thinking about this a lot ever since I played a game called "Balatro". In this game nothing extraordinary happens in terms of computing - some computations get done, some images are shuffled around on the screen, the effects are sparse. The hardware requirements aren't much by modern standards, but still, this game could be ported 1:1 to a machine with Pentium II with a 3dfx graphics card. And yet it dema…

The game is ported to switch, and it does run slow when you do big combos. You can feel it visually to the point that it's a bit annoying.
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