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First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

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Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#991

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we're using English, Argentina is in South America. People in Argentina speak Spanish and would call themselves americanos or sudamericanos. But in actuality they call themselves argentinos because everyone on earth understands that American unambiguously refers to citizens of the USA.

Hello no! If we are speaking English, Argentinians are Americans and so am I, from Brazil. The only thing that is unambiguously an US thing is the concept of calling people from the Americas latinos. Even many Europeans find it stupid.

But when you introduce yourself, do you call yourself Brazilian or American? I think almost everyone would use their nationality, not their continent, to avoid confusion. In English, the two continents are just that: two continents; North and South America, not "America."

> The only thing that is unambiguously an US thing is the concept of calling people from the Americas latinos.

Latino is a term for people with Latin American heritage, meaning those with Spanish or Portuguese linguistic and cultural roots. You're fine with calling yourself American in English but not Latino?

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#992

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello no! If we are speaking English, Argentinians are Americans and so am I, from Brazil. The only thing that is unambiguously an US thing is the concept of calling people from the Americas latinos. Even many Europeans find it stupid.

But when you introduce yourself, do you call yourself Brazilian or American? I think almost everyone would use their nationality, not their continent, to avoid confusion. In English, the two continents are just that: two continents; North and South America, not "America." > The only thing that is unambiguously an US thing is the concept of calling people from the Americas latinos. Latino is a term for people with Lat…

> You're fine with calling yourself American in English but not Latino

Exactly! Latino is a thing created my the US to separate themselves from us. But we all have a very similar history, colonized countries, native Americans almost eradicated then assimilated, slavery, migration from Europe and Asia. The only difference is that the US got richer.

> In English, the two continents are just that: two continents; North and South America, not "America."

In Portuguese too so most of the times I refer to us as South Americans but we are as Americans as people from the US. This is all linguistics/sociology so if/when the pushback is big enough we might be able to eradicate this stupid "latino" concept (that is wrong because there are countries included that speak English, dutch, creole and other languages that are not latinas)

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#993

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem to mesh with the fact that religion has historically been deeply tied to politics and governance. Meddling in political affairs is a routine thing for organized religions. The very existence of the Pope is a power play designed to make the Church's power seem more legitimate and justified than politicians. Examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur... https://en.wikipedia…

The existence of the Pope is inherent in the need for doctrinal and disciplinary unity. Otherwise when there's a dispute over whether to obey a pastor or whether he's correct about something in faith or morals, there's no arbiter, so the church splits in two, and it continues on the pattern of cancer. Naturally there will be faithless people in the church who use such positions as if they were political, but only bec…

How does this account for the numerous splits from the Church in the last 2 millennia?

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#994

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end Christianity is just a branch of Judaism ;) It's unlikely that Protestants (including all the weird splinter groups/cults/sects in the US), Catholics and Orthodox will ever reunite into the same church again, so calling them separate religions is fair I think.

But the numerous reunions effected by the Catholic Church have been nothing short of miraculous. For starters, there is a Catholic Church corresponding to every Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Church in existence. Belarussian Orthodox Church/Belarussian Catholic Church. Including some unique outliers: Melkites, Maronites, Chaldean Catholic. These Catholic Churches "returned" to communion when their head bishops decided to…

The great schism between the orthodox and catholic churches isn't like the schism between the protestants and Catholics. The protestant and catholic split is rooted in a fundamental disagreement on what the religion is; historically there has been conflict intertwined with politics too, but (Ireland notwithstanding) that isn't relevant to the Catholic/Protestant divide.

It is true that certain protestant sects are effectively "the catholicism we have at home [in england]" and you are right that those probably can be convinced to rejoin the catholic church but the majority of protestant sects have a firmly-rooted belief that the church is an organization created by humans to worship god and there is nothing inherently sacred about it. They also tend to reject anything outside of the old and new testaments compiled at nicea as being canon.

There's a fascinating bit of cognitive dissonance wherein they believe that God is still actively involved in the world and has been for the past 2000 years yet they haven't made any attempts at recording them; I think the logic is that they'd need the church to have some sort of divine authority to add to the bible and they've already ruled out the church having that authority so the bible is effectively set in stone forever. But that's irrelevant, I'm getting off-topic here.

Anyways, as far as unification goes it doesn't really matter that nobody knows or cares about ancient wars between catholic and protestant kingdoms and it doesn't matter that they can all get along and be neighbors and even have their churches work together on charity projects because the schism between the catholics and protestants is rooted in ideology not animosity. There's no compromise between the pope being a direct line of succession from peter and the pope being "just a guy in rome who makes great sermons" and I can't imagine they're going to want to take 1700 years of catholic lore and add it into their canon like its no big deal either.

Another roadblock is that the protestants themselves are highly fractured, often due to minor disagreements over pedantic minutiae that at least 99% of their members don't care about (IIRC one of the disagreements was over whether Jesus meant it literally when he said the bread and wine are his flesh and blood or rather that was a figure of speech, i think the calvinists and the lutherans are on opposite sides of that disagreement) but they've all had a long history of peaceful cooperation and they've never let that turn into an actual conflict yet still they never even try to unite. They don't see any point as long as they can coexist peacefully as separate churches because the only thing that would grant them is consolidation of power, which they are largely disinterested in. So even putting the ideological debates and factionalism aside, they'd need to be convinced that there is even a point in unifying with the catholic church when they can continue to peacefully coexist as separate organizations.

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#995

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus never said he was superseding a single thing. His entire ministry was about railing against the legalistic structure of the Pharisees, who were more interested in following "the Law" than having common sense or taking care of people. His ministry was about Jews, for Jews, and had nothing to do with gentiles at all. The grifter Paul is the one who opened up their cult to gentiles.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished”

Yup. He said that in the Bible. But he also fed people on the Sabbath because there were people needing to be fed, not because the recognition of the Sabbath day was abolished, but because the ridiculous legalistically dogmatic adherence to the Law was harming people. Just like today, where we've got ICE agents rushing parents and leaving their children alone in the backs of their vehicles. Also, his fulfillment was about being the sacrifice that sinners couldn't make for themselves, not about ignoring Old Testament laws.

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#996

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting thought but if they're actually that concerned about it then they'd wait longer than four months. It probably has more to do with America's predominant religion being protestantism by a very wife margin for most of the country's existence. We didn't have a Catholic president until Kennedy and even then proving to the common American that Catholics aren't insane Vatican mindslaves was considered…

> they’d wait longer than four months. Why? Is there any reason for anyone in the world to think this behavior will change suddenly? Is there a reason the church wouldn’t think the US has a crisis of faith if those in power and their followers are so willing to commit sin against their fellow man? Clearly we all know how Jesus proclaimed, “Gather ye the masses of immigrants and send them to another country, lest they…

Very late to this discussion, but you should read the Vatican's laws on migration and citizen-only residency, before talking about "sin against fellow man". I am not even Christian, but I find the Popes very hypocritical.

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#997

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of the Pope is inherent in the need for doctrinal and disciplinary unity. Otherwise when there's a dispute over whether to obey a pastor or whether he's correct about something in faith or morals, there's no arbiter, so the church splits in two, and it continues on the pattern of cancer. Naturally there will be faithless people in the church who use such positions as if they were political, but only bec…

How does this account for the numerous splits from the Church in the last 2 millennia?

Fallen human nature and all its corrupt motives accounts for that. The most obvious being that a good number of religious leaders have no interest in truth and are fine with causing division as long as it profits them.

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#998

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they’d wait longer than four months. Why? Is there any reason for anyone in the world to think this behavior will change suddenly? Is there a reason the church wouldn’t think the US has a crisis of faith if those in power and their followers are so willing to commit sin against their fellow man? Clearly we all know how Jesus proclaimed, “Gather ye the masses of immigrants and send them to another country, lest they…

Very late to this discussion, but you should read the Vatican's laws on migration and citizen-only residency, before talking about "sin against fellow man". I am not even Christian, but I find the Popes very hypocritical.

Are you referring to the laws of the Vatican City State, which is a microstate-sized enclave with barely enough infrastructure to support the Roman Curia? The Vatican City State, where the vast majority of its male populace are celibate, unmarried, no wife and no children? The Vatican City State, where tourists abound and comprise a giant revenue stream by their presence? The Vatican City State, which is surrounded by an ancient and cosmopolitan city which plays host and home to thousands of refugees and immigrants?

Or are you referring to some other type of hypocrisy?

What the actual hell?

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#999

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this account for the numerous splits from the Church in the last 2 millennia?

Fallen human nature and all its corrupt motives accounts for that. The most obvious being that a good number of religious leaders have no interest in truth and are fine with causing division as long as it profits them.

I thought your thesis was that the Pope was supposed to protect the Church from that.

Re: First American pope elected and will be known as Pope Leo XIV

#1000

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very late to this discussion, but you should read the Vatican's laws on migration and citizen-only residency, before talking about "sin against fellow man". I am not even Christian, but I find the Popes very hypocritical.

Are you referring to the laws of the Vatican City State, which is a microstate-sized enclave with barely enough infrastructure to support the Roman Curia? The Vatican City State, where the vast majority of its male populace are celibate, unmarried, no wife and no children? The Vatican City State, where tourists abound and comprise a giant revenue stream by their presence? The Vatican City State, which is surrounded b…

Yes, I am referring to that Vatican city. Immigration is extraordinarily harsh and strict - your cherished principles of Christianity do not apply. Hence the hypocrisy.

If you believe the city too small, then please consider Italy - which require asylum applications to be submitted while in a third country, the "Cutro Decree", limits on number of non-EU citizens who can enter, non-EU citizens need work permits, nothing given for "family reunification" - laws that are strictly applied or you are kicked out with little fanfare and 1000% less drama than in the USA.

Yes, the hypocrisy is mindbogglingly astonishing. I can say even more firmly: What the actual hell ?

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