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Starcloud

ycombinator.com

231–240 of 325 posts

Re: Starcloud

#231

I had a good laugh. - You can't build 40MW of solar panels for $2M, even with theoretical maximum efficiency. You can't even build the cabling and regulators at that price. - You need battery storage -- not as your backup -- but as primary source. It is going to cost more than $2M. Batteries are heavy. They are going to cost a lot to launch. This is not even solved on the ground yet. - You need a heat transport mediu…

At this point as long as you say AI 3 times someone will give you money. I guess you need connections too, and maybe a previous exit. This idea in particular doesn't make any sense... Currently. Maybe in a decade or so with better technology. Although the prospect of polluting the stars itself with a bunch of computers generating AI slips... We paved Paradise to put up a parking lot

It makes sense if you want to put a nearly unkillable AI in orbit to control life on earth :D

Re: Starcloud

#232
post #189

Microsoft had/has the Natick project which was an undersea data center testbed which allegedly had a bunch of benefits. That doesn't seem to have gone anywhere - or at least isn't really scaling up. I'd imagine the ongoing operational costs of space are worse than the ocean? To me, the cost estimates seem a bit off and conflate capital with running costs. The main benefit for space at the moment seems to be sidestepp…

> Microsoft had/has the Natick project which was an undersea data center testbed which allegedly had a bunch of benefits. That doesn't seem to have gone anywhere - or at least isn't really scaling up. I think at the core of this there's a risk analysis. At one point I briefly worked in a team in charge of a company's servers, and there were plenty of stories of things gone wrong enough that someone had to drive or fl…

Undersea doesn't have to mean in the middle of the ocean. Slap one downstream of one of the caissons of the Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge.

Re: Starcloud

#233
post #25

I've been saying for a long time that we should consider remote areas for building datacenters for batch processing. At first I thought the poles (of the planet) might be good. The cooling is basically free. But the energy and internet connectivity would be a problem. At the poles you can really only get solar about three months a year, and even then you need a lot of panels. Most of Antarctica is powered diesel beca…

Integrate compute units + Starlink into solar panels so people can buy them to earn money/tokens. Much cheaper than tangling massive power lines around the planet.

Re: Starcloud

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their whitepaper explains their cooling "solution": https://starcloudinc.github.io/wp.pdf > As conduction and convection to the environment are not available in space, this means the data center will require radiators capable of radiatively dissipating gigawatts of thermal load. To achieve this, Starcloud is developing a lightweight deployable radiator design with a very large area - by far the largest radiators depl…

Heat pumps could dramatically impact performance by increasing the temperature of the radiators. The hotter they are, the more power they can dissipate per unit time & area. Doubling the radiator temperature would give you 16x more radiated power.

And you can stack them. I.E. you can stack peltier devices to get -250C in your bedroom.

Re: Starcloud

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could they concentrate the energy and beam it down to earth as a source for electricity generation on the ground?

This is the best idea to come out of this whole scheme. Space solar panels are super cheap and efficient? Prove it! Launch them and transmit the energy down. This is orders of magnitude easier than the original proposal -- and yet still nonsensical.

We could use the energy to power a data center on earth!

Re: Starcloud

#236
post #31

And what happens to these datacenters when the underlying GPU tech becomes obsolete within 2-3 years?

Sell them on as kinetic weapons.

Re: Starcloud

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their whitepaper explains their cooling "solution": https://starcloudinc.github.io/wp.pdf > As conduction and convection to the environment are not available in space, this means the data center will require radiators capable of radiatively dissipating gigawatts of thermal load. To achieve this, Starcloud is developing a lightweight deployable radiator design with a very large area - by far the largest radiators depl…

> So, there you have it: "all you have to do" is deploy a few hectares of radiators in space, combined with heat pumps that can dissipate gigawatts of thermal load… Starcloud’s whitepaper suggests a 4 km × 4 km radiator. For comparison, the James Web Space Telescope has a sunshield measuring 21 m × 14 m and the International Space Station measures 109 m × 73 m.

James Webb is a trainwreck. It took 20 years of delays to launch it.

Re: Starcloud

#239
post #25

I've been saying for a long time that we should consider remote areas for building datacenters for batch processing. At first I thought the poles (of the planet) might be good. The cooling is basically free. But the energy and internet connectivity would be a problem. At the poles you can really only get solar about three months a year, and even then you need a lot of panels. Most of Antarctica is powered diesel beca…

Regarding Internet connectivity regardless of the orbit or location, something like YC co Bifrost Orbital (https://bifrostorbital.com/), might be an option.

Re: Starcloud

#240
How did this get funding?

Seriously! There is just so much wrong and some of is trivial.

  > radiating primarily towards deep space, which has an average temperature of about 2.7 Kelvin or -270°C. 
Are they suggesting putting these things in deep space? I guess for training you can handle hours of delay time but still it is really bandwidth limited. But they say they're using solar, so I assume they ARE NOT operating in deep space but rather near Earth or maybe even on the Moon.

In these locations you have to deal with cooling AND heating. On the moon you swing from -130C (LRO got down to -250C) on the dark side and 121C on the light side. The ISS swings from -160C to 120C. These are too cold for most electronics. Not to mention that these temperature swings create a lot of physical stress on parts, and we're talking about putting up up some of the smallest objects we commercially make? They will rip right off the circuit-board if you don't get it right.

Not to mention that radiating into space is quite difficult. There's a reason we use convection ovens and why we put fans in our computers. It isn't about the temperature of the atmosphere nor the thermal efficiency, it is because convection is just a hell of a lot more efficient. Thermal radiation is like shedding your heat via a lightbulb.

Their claim here is that they can radiate 633W/m2. For supercomputers we're talking on the order of 10s of MW of waste heat. That's 10^7! These are going to be BY FAR the largest radiators in space and going to cost tons of money for the mass alone.

Not to mention the size of the solar panels they'll need... But at least they mention this one: "A 5 GW data center would require a solar array with dimensions of approximately 4 km by 4 km," These are GIGANTIC structures and far larger than anything we've put into space.

  > The mass of radiation shielding scales linearly with the container surface area, whereas the compute per container scales with the volume. Therefore the mass of shielding needed per compute unit decreases linearly with container size.
This one really got me, because it can be sniffed out with high school physics.

Density (ρ) is mass (m) divided by volume (V): m = ρV. We'll assume a sphere due to its efficient surface area. You use Δr as the shell's thickness: V = 4/3(Δr)^3

  Let: m = ρV
  Let: V = 4/3(Δr)^3
  ∴ m ∝ ρ(Δr)^3
What is linear? What is decreasing?

  > This effect, combined with the shielding afforded by the cooling blocks, means that radiation shielding is proportionally a much smaller concern compared to electronics on typical satellites today.
Now this might be partially accurate, but it does require some very specific conditions to be true. It is quite common for spacecraft to dual purpose their cooling systems to also act as part of their radiation shielding since essentially the most important part of shielding is mass[0]. But also most spacecraft aren't giant computers in space. You're going to need extremely uniform shielding and I doubt you can efficiently design the cooling system to also be uniform.

But also you have to remember that you can't shield your solar panels. To do so would prevent light from reaching them. That leads to a weird constraint here and I would not expect these machines to be meaningfully long lived. The alternative is you could go repair them, but that's expensive too.

  ------- 
I think the idea is cool and worth exploring, but given the white paper I'm not sure why anyone gave them money. The idea itself is old and there has been a lot of work done in this space (pun intended). It just seems like it is riding the hype of space and AI. Exciting things, but that can make people naive. Maybe there's more than is shown in this whitepaper and I hope investors are doing more due diligence but there's definitely a lot of red flags here.

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https://www.nasa.gov/smallsat-institute/sst-soa/thermal-cont...

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/16-851-satellite-engineering-fal...

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/nmp/st8/tech/eaftc_tech1.php

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-024-03913-w

[0] I know this because I've research for NASA on radiation shields. I got multiple SBIR and STTR grants for this work. Material choices still do matter but the right material is proportional to the radiation level. But the higher the energy level, the less atomic properties matter and the more density does. You can get benefits from the electromagnetic properties of protons and electrons (beta-), but these don't help you with neutrons. That is, until after you slow these things down, which is why there is typically layering.

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