I work on a laptop from 2014. An i7 4xxx with 32 GB RAM and 3 TB SSD. It's OK for Rails and for Django, Vue, Slack, Firefox and Chrome. Browsers and interpreters got faster. Luckily there was pressure to optimize especially in browsers.
The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
321–330 of 842 posts
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just clicked on the network icon next to the clock on a Windows 11 laptop. A gray box appeared immediately, about one second later all the buttons for wifi, bluetooth, etc appeared. Windows is full of situations like this, that require no network calls, but still take over one second to render.
Yep. I suspect GP has just gotten used to this and it is the new “snappy” to them. I see this all the time with people who have old computers. “My computer is really fast. I have no need to upgrade” I press cmd+tab and watch it take 5 seconds to switch to the next window. That’s a real life interaction I had with my parents in the past month. People just don’t know what they’re missing out on if they aren’t using it…
Yeah, I play around with retro computers all the time. Even with IO devices that are unthinkably performant compared to storage hardware actually common at the time these machines are often dog slow. Just rendering JPEGs can be really slow.
Maybe if you're in a purely text console doing purely text things 100% in memory it can feel snappy. But the moment you do anything graphical or start working on large datasets its so incredibly slow.
I still remember trying to do photo editing on a Pentium II with a massive 64MB of RAM. Or trying to get decent resolutions scans off a scanner with a Pentium III and 128MB of RAM.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just clicked on the network icon next to the clock on a Windows 11 laptop. A gray box appeared immediately, about one second later all the buttons for wifi, bluetooth, etc appeared. Windows is full of situations like this, that require no network calls, but still take over one second to render.
It's strange, it visibly loading the buttons is indicative they use async technology that can use multithreaded CPUs effectively... but it's slower than the old synchronous UI stuff. I'm sure it's significantly more expensive to render than Windows 3.11 - XP were - rounded corners and scalable vector graphics instead of bitmaps or whatever - but surely not that much? And the resulting graphics can be cached.
Honestly it behaves like the interface is some Electron app that has to load the visual elements from a little internal webserver. That would be a very silly way to build an OS UI though, so I don't know what Microsoft is doing.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#324I like to point out that since ~1980, computing power has increased about 1000X. If dynamic array bounds checking cost 5% (narrator: it is far less than that), and we turned it on everywhere, we could have computers that are just a mere 950X faster. If you went back in time to 1980 and offered the following choice: I'll give you a computer that runs 950X faster and doesn't have a huge class of memory safety vulnerabi…
Except we've squandered that 1000x not on bounds checking but on countless layers of abstractions and inefficiency.
The major slowdown of modern applications is network calls. Spend 50-500ms a pop for a few kilos of data. Many modern applications will spin up a half dozen blocking network calls casually.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not being free upfront isn’t the same thing as expensive. Zoom’s got 7,412 employees a small team of say 7 employees could make a noticeable difference here and the investment wouldn’t disappear, it would help drive further profits. > Don't care about efficiency at all Doesn’t care beyond basic functionality. Obviously they care if something takes an hour to load, but rarely do you see considerations for people runni…
> Zoom’s got 7,412 employees a small team of say 7 employees could make a noticeable difference here What would those 7 engineers specifically be working on? How did you pick 7? What part of the infrastructure would they be working on, and what kind of performance gains, in which part of the system, would be the result of their work?
What consumers care about is the customer facing aspects of the business. As such you’d benchmark Zoom on various clients/plugins (Windows, Max, Android, iOS) and create a never ending priority list of issues weighted by marketshare.
7 people was roughly chosen to be able to cover the relevant skills while also being a tiny fraction of the workforce. Such efforts run into diminishing returns, but the company is going to keep creating low hanging fruit.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#326Well, yes. It's an economic problem (which is to say, it's a resource allocation problem). Do you have someone spend extra time optimising your software or do you have them produce more functionality. If the latter generates more cash then that's what you'll get them to do. If the former becomes important to your cashflow then you'll get them to do that.
> Do you have someone spend extra time optimising your software or do you have them produce more functionality
Depends. In general, I'd rather have devs optimize the software rather than adding new features just for the sake of change.
I don't use most of the new features in macOS, Windows, or Android. I mostly want an efficient environment to run my apps and security improvements. I'm not that happy about many of the improvements in macOS (eg the settings app).
Same with design software. I don't use most of the new features introduced by Adobe. I'd be happy using Illustrator or Photoshop from 10 years ago. I want less bloat, not more.
I also do audio and music production. Here I do want new features because the workflow is still being improved but definitely not at the cost of efficiency.
Regarding code editors I'm happy with VSCode in terms of features. I don't need anything else. I do want better LSPs but these are not part of the editor core. I wish VSCode was faster and consumed less memory though.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
Am I taking crazy pills or are programs not nearly as slow as HN comments make them out to be? Almost everything loads instantly on my 2021 MacBook and 2020 iPhone. Every program is incredibly responsive. 5 year old mobile CPUs load modern SPA web apps with no problems. The only thing I can think of that’s slow is Autodesk Fusion starting up. Not really sure how they made that so bad but everything else seems super s…
It vastly depends on what software you're forced to use. Here's some software I use all the time, which feels horribly slow, even on a new laptop: Slack. Switching channels on slack, even when you've just switched so it's all cached, is painfully slow. I don't know if they build in a 200ms or so delay deliberately to mask when it's not cached, or whether it's some background rendering, or what it is, but it just feel…
I don't get any kind of spinner on Outlook opening emails. Especially emails which are pure text or only lightly stylized open instantly. Even emails with calendar invites load really fast, I don't see any kind of spinner graphic at all.
Running latest Outlook on Windows 11, currently >1k emails in my Inbox folder, on an 11th gen i5, while also on a Teams call a ton of other things active on my machine.
This is also a machine with a lot of corporate security tools sapping a lot of cycles.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
The dumbest and most obvious of realizations finally dawned on me after trying to build a software startup that was based on quality differentiation. We were sure that a better product would win people over and lead to viral success. It didn’t. Things grew, but so slowly that we ran out of money after a few years before reaching break even. What I realized is that lower costs, and therefore lower quality, are a compe…
> What I realized is that lower costs, and therefore lower quality, This implication is the big question mark. It's often true but it's not at all clear that it's necessarily true. Choosing better languages, frameworks, tools and so on can all help with lowering costs without necessarily lowering quality. I don't think we're anywhere near the bottom of the cost barrel either. I think the problem is focusing on improv…
Your argument makes sense. I guess now it's your time to shine and to be the change you want to see in the world.
Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have worked for large corporations that have foisted awful HR, expense reporting, time tracking and insurance "portals" that were so awful I had to wonder if anyone writing the checks had ever seen the product. I brought up the point several times that if my team tried to tell a customer that we had their project all done but it was full of as many bugs and UI nightmares as these back office platforms, I would be c…
I used to work at a large company that had a lousy internal system for doing performance evals and self-reviews. The UI was shitty, it was unreliable, it was hard to use, it had security problems, it would go down on the eve of reviews being due, etc. This all stressed me out until someone in management observed, rather pointedly, that the reason for existence of this system is that we are contractually required to h…
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Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
VS Code defers a lot of tasks to the background at least. This is a bit more visible in intellij; you seem to measure how long it takes to show its window, but how long does it take for it to warm up and finish indexing / loading everything, or before it actually becomes responsive? Anyway, five seconds is long for a text editor; 10, 15 years ago, sublime text loaded and opened up a file in Also keep in mind that des…
>Anyway, five seconds is long for a text editor; 10, 15 years ago, sublime text loaded and opened up a file in Do any of those do the indexing that cause the slowness? If not it's comparing apples to oranges.
Riders startup time isn’t including indexing. Indexing my entire project takes minutes but it does it in the background.