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The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

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Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I taking crazy pills or are programs not nearly as slow as HN comments make them out to be? Almost everything loads instantly on my 2021 MacBook and 2020 iPhone. Every program is incredibly responsive. 5 year old mobile CPUs load modern SPA web apps with no problems. The only thing I can think of that’s slow is Autodesk Fusion starting up. Not really sure how they made that so bad but everything else seems super s…

I think it's a very theoretical argument: we could of course theoretically make everything even faster. It's nowhere near the most optimal use of the available hardware. All we'd have to give up is squishy hard-to-measure things like "feature sets" and "engineering velocity."

we could of course theoretically make everything even faster. It's nowhere near the most optimal use of the available hardware. All we'd have to give up is squishy hard-to-measure things like "feature sets" and "engineering velocity."

Says who? Who are these experienced people that know how to write fast software that think it is such a huge sacrifice?

The reality is that people who say things like this don't actually know much about writing fast software because it really isn't that difficult. You just can't grab electron and the lastest javascript react framework craze.

These kinds of myths get perpetuated by people who repeat it without having experienced the side of just writing native software. I think mostly it is people rationalizing not learning C++ and sticking to javascript or python because that's what they learned first.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#232
Really no notes on this. Carmack hit both sides of the coin:

- the way we do industry-scale computing right now tends to leave a lot of opportunity on the table because we decouple, interpret, and de-integrate where things would be faster and take less space if we coupled, compiled, and made monoliths

- we do things that way because it's easier to innovate, tweak, test, and pivot on decoupled systems that isolate the impact of change and give us ample signal about their internal state to debug and understand them

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I taking crazy pills or are programs not nearly as slow as HN comments make them out to be? Almost everything loads instantly on my 2021 MacBook and 2020 iPhone. Every program is incredibly responsive. 5 year old mobile CPUs load modern SPA web apps with no problems. The only thing I can think of that’s slow is Autodesk Fusion starting up. Not really sure how they made that so bad but everything else seems super s…

Yup, people run software on shitty computers and blame all the software. The only slow (local) software I know is llvm and cpp compilers Other are pretty fast

You have stories of people running 2021 MacBooks and complaining about performance. Those are not shitty computers.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#234
post #210
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market sells as if all goods were high-quality The phrase "high-quality" is doing work here. The implication I'm reading is that poor performance = low quality. However, the applications people are mentioning in this comment section as low performance (Teams, Slack, Jira, etc) all have competitors with much better performance. But if I ask a person to pick between Slack and, say, a a fast IRC client like Weecha…

You are comparing applications with wildly different features and UI. That's neither an argument for nor against performance as an important quality metric. How fast you can compile, start and execute some particular code matters. The experience of using a program that performs well if you use it daily matters. Performance is not just a quantitative issue. It leaks into everything, from architecture to delivery to us…

> You are comparing applications with wildly different features and UI. That's neither an argument for nor against performance as an important quality metric.

I never said performance wasn't an important quality metric, just that it's not the only quality metric. If a slow program has the features I need and a fast program doesn't, the slow program is going to be "higher quality" in my mind.

> How fast you can compile, start and execute some particular code matters. The experience of using a program that performs well if you use it daily matters.

Like any other feature, whether or not performance is important depends on the user and context. Chrome being faster than IE8 at general browsing (rendering pages, opening tabs) was very noticeable. uv/ruff being faster than pip/poetry is important because of how the tools integrate into performance-sensitive development workflows. Does Slack taking 5-10 seconds to load on startup matter? -- to me not really, because I have it come up on boot and forget about it until my next system update forced reboot. Do I use LibreOffice or Word and Excel, even though LibreOffice is faster? -- I use Word/Excel because I've run into annoying compatibility issues enough times with LO to not bother. LibreOffice could reduce their startup and file load times to 10 picoseconds and I would still use MS Office, because I just want my damn documents to keep the same formatting my colleagues using MS Office set on their Windows computers.

Now of course I would love the best of all worlds; programs to be fast and have all the functionality I want! In reality, though, companies can't afford to build every feature, performance included, and need to pick and choose what's important.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#235
post #12

I like to point out that since ~1980, computing power has increased about 1000X. If dynamic array bounds checking cost 5% (narrator: it is far less than that), and we turned it on everywhere, we could have computers that are just a mere 950X faster. If you went back in time to 1980 and offered the following choice: I'll give you a computer that runs 950X faster and doesn't have a huge class of memory safety vulnerabi…

And this is JavaScript. And you. are. going. to. LOVE IT!

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Innovative new products would get much rarer without super cheap and scalable compute, of course". Interesting conclusion—I'd argue we haven't seen much innovation since the smartphone (18 years ago now), and it's entirely because capital is relying on the advances of hardware to sell what is to consumers essentially the same product that they already have. Of course, I can't read anything past the first tweet.

And I'd argue that we've seen tons of innovation in the past 18 years aside from just "the smartphone" but it's all too easy to take for granted and forget from our current perspective. First up, the smartphone itself had to evolve a hell of a lot over 18 years or so. Go try to use an iPhone 1 and you'll quickly see all of the roadblocks and what we now consider poor design choices littered everywhere, vs improvement…

Your post seems entirely anachronistic.

2007 is the year we did get video streaming services: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_iPlayer

Steam was selling games, even third party ones, for years by 2007.

I'm not sure what a "VS-Code style IDE" is, but I absolutely did appreciate Visual Studio ( and VB6! ) prior to 2007.

2007 was in fact the peak of TomTom's profit, although GPS navigation isn't really the same as general purpose mapping application.

Grocery delivery was well established, Tesco were doing that in 1996. And the idea of takeaways not doing delivery is laughable, every establishment had their own delivery people.

Yes, there are some things on that list that didn't exist, but the top half of your list is dominated by things that were well established by 2007.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Innovative new products would get much rarer without super cheap and scalable compute, of course". Interesting conclusion—I'd argue we haven't seen much innovation since the smartphone (18 years ago now), and it's entirely because capital is relying on the advances of hardware to sell what is to consumers essentially the same product that they already have. Of course, I can't read anything past the first tweet.

And I'd argue that we've seen tons of innovation in the past 18 years aside from just "the smartphone" but it's all too easy to take for granted and forget from our current perspective. First up, the smartphone itself had to evolve a hell of a lot over 18 years or so. Go try to use an iPhone 1 and you'll quickly see all of the roadblocks and what we now consider poor design choices littered everywhere, vs improvement…

most of that list is iteration, not innovation. like going from "crappy colour printer" to "not-so-crappy colour printer"

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on a four year old mid-tier laptop and opening VS Code takes maybe five seconds. Opening IDEA takes five seconds. Opening twitter on an empty cache takes perhaps four seconds and I believe I am a long way from their servers. On my work machine slack takes five seconds, IDEA is pretty close to instant, the corporate VPN starts nearly instantly (although the Okta process seems unnecessarily slow I'll admit), and mo…

VS Code defers a lot of tasks to the background at least. This is a bit more visible in intellij; you seem to measure how long it takes to show its window, but how long does it take for it to warm up and finish indexing / loading everything, or before it actually becomes responsive? Anyway, five seconds is long for a text editor; 10, 15 years ago, sublime text loaded and opened up a file in Also keep in mind that des…

>Anyway, five seconds is long for a text editor; 10, 15 years ago, sublime text loaded and opened up a file in Do any of those do the indexing that cause the slowness? If not it's comparing apples to oranges.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#239
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No user actually wants abundance. No, all users just want the few programs which they themselves need. The market is not one user, though. It's all of them.

But each vendor only develop a few software and generally supports only three platforms -/+ one. It’s so damning when I see projects reaching out for electron, when they only support macOS and Windows. And software like Slack has no excuse for being this slow on anything other than latest gen cpu and 1gb internet connection.

slack is shit along all sorts of dimensions (not just speed and bloat) because you're not the customer.

Re: The world could run on older hardware if software optimization was a priority

#240
post #91

There is an argument to be made that the market buys bug-filled, inefficient software about as well as it buys pristine software. And one of them is the cheapest software you could make. It's similar to the "Market for Lemons" story. In short, the market sells as if all goods were high-quality but underhandedly reduces the quality to reduce marginal costs. The buyer cannot differentiate between high and low-quality g…

> the market buys bug-filled, inefficient software about as well as it buys pristine software

In fact, the realization is that the market buy support.

And that includes google and other companies that lack much of human support.

This is the key.

Support is manifested in many ways:

* There is information about it (docs, videos, blogs, ...)

* There is people that help me ('look ma, this is how you use google')

* There is support for the thing I use ('OS, Browser, Formats, ...')

* And for my way of working ('Excel let me do any app there...')

* And finally, actual people (that is the #1 thing that keep alive even the worst ERP on earth). This also includes marketing, sales people, etc. This are signal of having support even if is not exactly the best. If I go to enterprise and only have engineers that will be a bad signal, because well, developers then to be terrible at other stuff and the other stuff is support that matters.

If you have a good product, but there is not support, is dead.

And if you wanna fight a worse product, is smart to reduce the need to support for ('bugs, performance issues, platforms, ...') for YOUR TEAM because you wanna reduce YOUR COSTS but you NEED to add support in other dimensions!

The easiest for a small team, is just add humans (that is the MOST scarce source of support). After that, it need to be creative.

(also, this means you need to communicate your advantages well, because there is people that value some kind of support more than others 'have the code vs propietary' is a good example. A lot prefer the proprietary with support more than the code, I mean)

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