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Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

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Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#131
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was given the choice, I would without exception pay more for non-AI service.

Some businesses have done similar. Some banks in Australia announced they will be charging a fee for withdrawing cash at the counter rather than at ATMs, other businesses charge fees for receiving communications by letter rather than email.

As long as there's a choice it allows the market to influence decisions.

The big issue is forcing AI down everyone's throat without being the least concerned about their experience.

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#132
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer should never make a management decision" Quote from an IBM training manual from 1979 Seems just as true and even more relevant today than it was back then

That's why you hold the humans that run the computer accountable.

That's sort of the whole point though

The computer allows the humans a lot of leeway. For one thing, the computer represents a large diffusion of responsibility. Do you hold the programmers responsible? The managers who told them to build the software? How about the hardware manufacturers or the IT people who built or installed the system? Maybe the Executives?

What if the program was built with all good intentions and just has a critical exploit that someone abused?

It's just not so straightforward to hold the humans accountable when there are so many humans that touch any piece of commercial software

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#133
There's a larger context here which is really interesting: as far as I can tell (and I'd love to hear confirmation from people more credible than me) the way LLMs and other models train on unlicensed data is NOT legal under current UK copyright law.

The UK government and trying to make it legal, presumably for concern over staying competitive in this rapidly growing space.

Baroness Kidron, mentioned in this story, is the leading figure in UK parliament who is pushing back against this.

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#134
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you hold the humans that run the computer accountable.

That's sort of the whole point though The computer allows the humans a lot of leeway. For one thing, the computer represents a large diffusion of responsibility. Do you hold the programmers responsible? The managers who told them to build the software? How about the hardware manufacturers or the IT people who built or installed the system? Maybe the Executives? What if the program was built with all good intentions a…

That's fair but I was referering to the humans that delegate "business decisions" to computers, which is what I thought the context was...

For example, if American Airlines uses a computer to help decide who gets refunds, they can't then blame the computer when it discriminates against group X, or steals money, because it was their own "business decision" that is responsible for that action (with the assist from a stupid computer they chose to use).

This is different from when their landing gear doesn't go down because of a software flaw in some component. They didn't produce the component and they didn't they didn't choose to delegate their "business decisions" to it, so as long as they used an approved vendor etc they should be ok. Choosing the vendor, the maintainence schedules, etc, etc: those are the "business decisions" they're responsible for.

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why specifically are people allowed to build on humanity's past achievements, but not AI? Let’s untangle this. 1. Humanity’s achievements are achievements by individuals, who are motivated by desires like recognition, wealth, personal security, altruism, self-actualisation. 2. “AI” does not build on that body of work. A chatbot has no free will or agency; there is no concept of “allowing” it to do something—there i…

That's a long-winded way of spelling out a a Dog in the Manger approach to society, coupled with huge entitlement issues: There is something valuable to others, that I neither built nor designed, but because I might have touched it once and left a paw print, I feel hurt no one wants to pay me rent for the valuable thing, and because of that, I want to destroy it so no one can have it. Point 2) operates on a spectrum,…

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Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why specifically are people allowed to build on humanity's past achievements, but not AI? Let’s untangle this. 1. Humanity’s achievements are achievements by individuals, who are motivated by desires like recognition, wealth, personal security, altruism, self-actualisation. 2. “AI” does not build on that body of work. A chatbot has no free will or agency; there is no concept of “allowing” it to do something—there i…

That's a long-winded way of spelling out a a Dog in the Manger approach to society, coupled with huge entitlement issues: There is something valuable to others, that I neither built nor designed, but because I might have touched it once and left a paw print, I feel hurt no one wants to pay me rent for the valuable thing, and because of that, I want to destroy it so no one can have it. Point 2) operates on a spectrum,…

Your dog quote seems to mean the opposite of the rest of your comment. We’re talking about destruction of the idea of creative work as product of specific living and breathing, at least at some point in time, humans by companies with market caps the size of countries wishing they could charge everyone rent for access to something someone else made without licensing it.

> human work has no agency or free will behind it

There is one case where it is sort of true, but crucially 1) agency still exists, it is just restricted, and 2) it is called “slavery”. I felt like your comment not only equates a human being with freedom/agency (whether restricted or not) to a software tool, it also equates “I have to do my job because it pays money” with having brutally been robbed of freedom, which really underplays how bad the latter is.

> something that exists only because of collective result of 1), but any individual contribution to it is of no importance

Collective result, which consists of individual works. That argument appears to be “if we steal enough, then it is okay”.

> Motivations from point 1. have already been satisfied

We exist over time, not only in the past. A swath of motivations for doing any original work is going away for upcoming original work on which chatbots etc. are built.

> that is not accessible to any individual creator, because (again) it comes from sheer bulk and diversity of works, not from any individual one

Yes, humans can be inspired and build upon a huge diversity of works, like what has been happening for as long as humanity existed (you may have heard the phrase “everything is a remix”). If you talk to me and I previously read Kant then who knows, whatever you create may have been inspired by Kant.

Libraries have done great job at amplifying that ability. Search engines put massive datasets at your fingertips while maintaining attribution (you are always directed to the source), connection of authors and readers, and sometimes even offering ways of earning money (of course, profiting off it as well; the beauty of capitalism). I am sure there are plenty of other examples of ML models in various fields that achieved great results yet were trained on appropriately licensed work. In other words, none of this does justify theft.

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#137
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge amount of spam never makes it into spam folders; it’s discarded silently.

If you use microsoft outlook most of the spam never makes it into the spam folder because it goes to the inbox. Do you have a source for your somewhat unbelievable claim?

I run "gray listing" software on my email servers. Some spam is blocked by that. There are logs, but I never look at them, other than when I do an upgrade. Mail that makes it through will hit a secondary spam filter which will flag it as "spam" and dump it into a different folder (which I look at slightly more frequently.)

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you used the example of a human when those actually have legal responsibility and, as you suggest, are unique ? Rather, why would LLMs be treated any differently from other machines ? Mass recall of flawed machines (if dangerous enough) is common after all.

Why even look at the LLM? A human deployed it and defers to its advice for decision-making; the problem is in the decision-making process, which is in full control of the human. It should be obvious how to regulate that: be critical of what the human behind the LLM does.

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here that the machine can in theory work well, and is also well used by the human (and the flaw was very unlikely to be found by their inspection) : so in this idealized setting only the machine's manufacturer screwed up (potentially also that human's boss which decided to buy that machine).

Re: Avoiding AI is hard – but our freedom to opt out must be protected

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, blocking training on published information doesn’t make sense: If you don’t want your stuff to be read, don’t publish it! There's a difference between reading something and ripping it off, no matter how you launder it.

I think the line is actually much blurrier than it might seem. Realistically everything is a remix of things people have done before; almost nothing is truly brand new. So why specifically are people allowed to build on humanity's past achievements, but not AI?

I put googly eyes on a camcorder and call it Bobby. Why can't Bobby watch a movie in the theater with me?
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