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Plain Vanilla Web

plainvanillaweb.com

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Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#611

Post by HappMacDonald »

Juliate wrote: post #484
Aurornis wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand your sentiment but it was perfectly normal to pump gas before paying in the U.S. for a very long time and still is in many places. I had a friend who worked at a gas station in high school. Filing police reports for people who filled up and left without paying was a standard part of operations. This was in a nice area, too. Often people just forgot and drove away. They had recourse because they had sec…

> You can’t have a pay-later business without an amount of non-payment, which has to be compensated by higher prices (which other customers shoulder). People who never experienced high-trust and customs societies cannot grasp why and how it works infinitely better than low-trust ones. But granted, all it takes is a few determined bad faith actors to break high-trust, when they are not vehemently and swiftly rejected…

I don't know if I would classify "consume first, pay later" as high trust. Example: Hotel "honor bars".

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#612

Post by zchrykng »

int_19h wrote: post #543
Juliate wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can’t have a pay-later business without an amount of non-payment, which has to be compensated by higher prices (which other customers shoulder). People who never experienced high-trust and customs societies cannot grasp why and how it works infinitely better than low-trust ones. But granted, all it takes is a few determined bad faith actors to break high-trust, when they are not vehemently and swiftly rejected…

For this to work, you need society as a whole to participate in enforcement. But we have created an environment where this kind of thing is unthinkable, not even because people won't do it, but because they will only create legal trouble for themselves if they try. So the modus operandi for your average citizen in Western societies in general and US in particular is to not get involved and leave it all to law enforce…

Not to mention the people who actively vilify anyone who "snitches" on the person by turning them in to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Luigi anyone?

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#613

Post by kingofheroes »

bradly wrote: post #340
bob1029 wrote: post #291

I've transcended the vanilla/framework arguments in favor of "do we even need a website for this?". I've discovered that when you start getting really cynical about the actual need for a web application - especially in B2B SaaS - you may become surprised at how far you can take the business without touching a browser. A vast majority of the hours I've spent building web sites & applications has been devoted to admini…

I sell urns online and my website just has an email link. No shopping cart. A brick-and-mortor urn shop would never have a shopping cart, so why would a virtual one? I've purchased specialized woodworking tools online that simply involved filling out a form. I later received the parts with an invoice to send payment. You can simply not pay if you choose not to. There are so many way to do commerce both on and offline…

Two local businesses I frequent (one for baked goods and another for coffee beans) use mailing lists for membership and ordering. Only "drawback", if it even is one, is they rely on word-of-mouth because I had no idea they existed until I saw them mentioned in a thread on a local subreddit.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#614

Post by Swizec »

threetonesun wrote: post #564
Swizec wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me that reeks of badly structured code, with bad abstraction layers, perhaps stuffing too much stuff into a single module or, if the language is still backward and doesn't have modules, a file Yes and that’s normal. Big ball of mud is the worlds most popular software architecture. Original: http://www.laputan.org/mud/ My modern take based on the original: https://swizec.com/blog/big-ball-of-mud-the-worlds-most-p…

MVC with jQuery or some SPA framework at some point you have to consider why the menu is tied to the view at all, and not deriving its state from the user session. I'd say in either case who decides that (and who rewrites it) is equally messy. The nice part about SPAs is you can usually slice off that functionality and give it to one set of developers to deal with in isolation much easier than you can with an MVC str…

> why the menu is tied to the view at all, and not deriving its state from the user session

Yes! But it turns out in some of these frameworks “the user session” is not a magic global, your view has to pass it into the template.

And even if it was a global, you are super limited in how much derived data/queries you can compute off of it. Because you’re not using a full-powered language – instead it’s jinja, mustache, or similar.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#615

Post by accrual »

SoftTalker wrote: post #416
getnormality wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how 100% B2B worked before there was B2B SaaS, and it's still how 99% of B2B works today.

Yep. EDI and FTP.

Still is that way in many places. Some smaller clients I've worked with prefer the flat-file + FTP over a more integrated solution (TCP/IP, etc.).

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#616

Post by accrual »

archerx wrote: post #598
smokel wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterpoint, many systems that were originally implemented as native desktop applications have since been migrated to the web. The motivation for this shift is not particularly strong from a technical standpoint, but it is a practical one: deploying native applications is simply too costly. The web finally provides a widespread standard for deploying applications inexpensively. Unfortunately, the technology use…

I’m making a web game and using html, css and vanilla javascript for the UI is fine. I have transitions, sounds and everything is very fast without any of the bloat. The actual game itself is in canvas but everything else is standard web stuff.

> I'm making a web game and using html, css and vanilla javascript

Nice work. Reminds me of "A Dark Room" and how a simple mostly-text interface with a bit of HTML/CSS/JS can have such a big impact.

https://adarkroom.doublespeakgames.com/

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#617

Post by evantbyrne »

lolinder wrote: post #164
donohoe wrote: post #66

I'm not against frameworks, but in many cases, they're unnecessary. I've always questioned why we should add 100KB of JavaScript to a page before writing a single line of real code. My team and I built https://restofworld.org without any frameworks. The feedback, from surveys, outreach, and unsolicited emails, has been overwhelmingly positive, especially around usability and reading experience. We might adopt a frame…

I think that this comment is a great example of the total disconnect these conversations always have. On the one hand we have lots of people on here who are building full-featured web apps, not websites, on teams of 30+. These people look at frameworkless options and immediately have a dozen different questions about how your frameworkless design handles a dozen different features that their use case absolutely requi…

> I think that this comment is a great example of the total disconnect these conversations always have.

If we're being fair, the same could be said of this comment, which goes on to make some assumptions. One guy giving an anecdote that is not a web app does not prove much. I've built award winning web apps with progressive enhancement. It takes less code, less time, the performance is better, and they can be just as interactive. We need to stop looking for the weaknesses in each other's arguments and look for their strengths. I'm guilty of this as well.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#618

Post by NohatCoder »

leptons wrote: post #501
Swizec wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on a site that was built without frameworks with just a sprinkle of jQuery on top of a traditional MVC framework. It worked great but then the business grew and the software became bigger than what fits in 1 engineer’s head. We now have lots of issues that need fixing. A good example are pages that take 5 seconds to load because they have to do so much, then you submit a form, and the page reload takes 5 secon…

>A good example are pages that take 5 seconds to load because they have to do so much, then you submit a form, and the page reload takes 5 seconds to go through but there is no UI feedback so you press the button a few more times because maybe it didn’t work? Then you get an error because the first action worked but the subsequent actions failed due to uniqueness constraints. It's been standard practice for at least…

At least adding in the feature once you notice the problem shouldn't be difficult.

Re: Plain Vanilla Web

#620

Post by 6P58r3MXJSLi »

sswatson wrote: post #542
6P58r3MXJSLi wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so if you have their location you can easily tell them how to get to you. So you work in logistics support, but you pay to do it?

Yes. I’m happy to do whatever makes the most sense in any given situation. I have never in my life thought to myself “I could easily help solve this problem and make everyone better off, but I will refuse because problem-solving is work and work is only for employees.”

> I’m happy to do whatever makes the most sense in any given situation

What makes the most sense in this situation: you walk to the nearest pizza place, you buy your pizza, done.

To an able-bodied person it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.

Bonus points: you know the way back to your home.

> because problem-solving is work

You know who made someone else's problem a problem=solving problem? You.

The delivery guy will eventually find your place or he's just taking a different route for whatever reason.

How arrogant is it to think that you can tell people how to do their job, from your couch?

You obsession for micro managing other people's actions it only says that you suffer from high anxiety, it is not in any way proof that you make everyone better off. That's just what you tell yourself.

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